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Post by coachinghopeful on Feb 26, 2009 20:53:07 GMT -6
MY HS experience was at one of those "Can't win" schools. I think it's a good case study for this thread.
The school opened in 1980 and replaced a perennial winner that was only a few years removed from its last state championship. In consolidating the schools the admin made the wrong choices at just about every single opportunity (giving it a generic name, putting it outside of town in the middle of nowhere, pushing the legendary coach of the other school into retirement, and refusing to acknowledge any connection to the history of the old school). For the first 15 years of its existence this school never won more than 4 games in a season. Usually it was lucky to go 3-7.
To hear the coaches and administration tell it, the team couldn't win because they simply lacked talent and money to compete with the elite in the conference. Yes, we played a tough schedule (we were in 2 diff conferences while I was there, but both featured at least 2 state powers--one was practically an SEC feeder school), but overall those excuses were BS compared to the other 8 teams on the schedule-- we routinely sent at least one player on to a 1-AA scholarship each year and had plenty of others going NAIA, Div. II, etc. If anything, we had more raw talent to work with than many of the teams that blew us out every year. We even had a pretty decent weightroom.
What really caused the losing was a lack of organization combined with a lot of buck passing, backstabbing, and generally lousy/spineless administration. That administration ran off a great basketball coach who took that team from mediocrity into a state championship contender in 5 years. He got sick of being told who to play, working his kids too hard, and getting ripped for not winning the state championship or landing more basketball scholarships for his 6'3" post players.
Historically, HCs there either took flack for chasing off their best athletes or sacrificed discipline and the interests of the team to appease the star athletes they felt were gifts from heaven. When you're winning, you can get away with the most talented athletes not playing, but when you're losing, people see sticking to your guns as being an imcompetent ego-maniac.
In football, our HC would tell anyone who would listen that we just couldn't win because we (the players) weren't good enough--not because we never worked on any fundamentals in 4 and 5 hr practices. We had great weight room participation, but our workouts were ineffective and we had no speed program (unless you count Track). We had a total of 6 coaches for the program in a school of 900 (2 freshman, 4 varsity--we had no JV and lost about 2/3 of our players between 9th and 11th grade). Players would come up through the feeder system but transfer to a different HS (and often make All-State there) because they wanted to play on a winner. It was my senior year before we even had a booster club or a spring practice, and that was only after 2 mutinous assistants and our QB's parents got our HC fired a year after we made the playoffs for the first time ever.
The situation now is much different. Another coach has come and gone, and the old AD and Principal who caused so many problems both retired. The current principal is a good man who used to coach himself, and the current AD has really got the organizational aspect nailed down. When the coaching vacancy opened up (because of a big scandal), rather than hire someone with political connections within the system, they brought in a qualified HC who grew up in a neighboring county and established himself as a coach out of state. Two years ago, and with much less raw talent than we used to have, that HC guided them to only their 2nd winning season and 1st playoff win ever.
I've seen other teams here do similar things. Once they get the right people in charge, those "can't win" schools suddenly start winning.
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Post by phantom on Feb 26, 2009 20:54:38 GMT -6
My Alma Mater went from 8-4 10 years ago to 0-10 last year with me on staff. Why couldn't we win. 1) Talent and lower level talent The previous HC's, didn't make the "chicken sh*t" Bigger, Faster or Stronger. When we got here 3 years ago, we had 5 players that could bench over 230. Now while Bench and football don't go hand and hand, you understand what I am talking about as far as strength. Speed- The fastest person on the team ran a 4.7 - 40 and 11.6 - 100m, after 2 years on me on staff, slower win we got here. I know you don't need Speed to win game, but in comparison as the track coach, we have never made the region finals in any sprint race and our region has produced the track state champion 8 out of the last 10 years. Our rival school who is 10 miles away had 13 young men sign football scholly's they also won state(The school we talked about that won't allow Spurrier to come back). But the state championship was played between top teams from our region. Out of the 4 that went to the playoffs. 3 won at least 2 games. Our region is part of the problem, because of the strength. But we just don't have the jimmies and the joes. But the other bigger issues. 2) Admin Support The HC was fired after 1 season we went 0-10, the coach before win after 2 seasons 3-17, before him 5 years, etc..... We had 3 coaches who taught in the building the principal told us she would get coaches in the building and qualified lay coaches. Didn't help us we had 6 coaches total on staff for a school of 1600 kids, where teams we play have 9 plus.. 3)Community & Parent Support We are a highly academic school, but so are others in our region. If Johnny has a test tomorrow and doesn't want to come to practice and misses and try to punish him, mom raises heck to the principal and we can't punish him for not coming, including no extra running. I know you stay bench him, but what happens when 50% of the team does this once per week? 3) While we have made them BFS. The huge gap between us and 6th place team in the region. Parents have a lack of commitment during the summer. Vacation for this and that even though we have an agreed upon 2 week off right after finals for vacation and the week of the 4th. To me the biggest things you need in a program are 1) Admin Support 2) Weightroom 3) Good Coaches and tenure. We got none so when you have a lack of talent and then you get no help to deal with those issues nothing happens. They have hired a new coach and told him he could get coaches in the building while interviewing, we have no spots available for next year. Another example on the gaps that need to be made in the area of making the kids better. My 4x100 team ran a time of 44.33 fastest time in 4 years. In our region out of 10 schools including us, 5 had there A and B teams run faster than my A team. phatnom, those big 3 were different when I went there, plus the talent was different. Our region had 63 kids sign scholly's this year 18 to a D-I school. Our school had one kid sign NAIA and another we are trying to send from GA to Minnesota to play D-II. I believe you. What I'm wondering is why you have less talent.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2009 21:13:11 GMT -6
I don't know coach, when I was in HS St.Joes Prep in philly was the doormat of the league, and stayed so for many years, then a new coach, a changein rules allowing recruiting, then and 3-4 years, they were a Nationally ranked powerhouse. I think it has alot to do with how many kids they can draw to the school.
Kinda what happened to Central Bucks West here in Pa
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Post by airraider on Feb 26, 2009 21:14:16 GMT -6
Im not going to muddle through this whole thing.. I just want to offer my thoughts from personal experience..
Willing and Able.. PERIOD!!
If your kids are willing to do the work and able to get the work done.. then they will win..
If you kids are willing.. but just do not have the horses that others have... or if your kids could be the horses.. but are not willing to put in the work.. than you will lose..
Spent the last 2 years on 1-9 teams.. first one the kids were willing.. but the fastest kid ran a 4.9.. they were not able to win.. when compared to the teams we played..
This past year we had the kids who had as much natural skill and ability to win vs the people we played.. but they never were willing to do what it took to win.. They never went above and beyond and made it a top priority.. and we lost..
Back to the year before those two.. we had a very hard working group of kids.. they worked hard.. and we had lots of kids show up during the summer.. we also had some very good athletes.. result.. 13-1..
I know it is really over simplifying it.. but it holds truth..
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Post by kelcoach on Feb 26, 2009 21:32:25 GMT -6
As a guy who coached at a "can't win" school, I have seen all the reasons listed.
Bad admin. No community support Bad coaching Lack of talent Apathy on the part of all parties Off-season programs Poor facilities Basketball school (actually town) Illegal Recruiting (that cost us players)
During my time there, we finished .500 once. We made the playoffs for the first time in school history that season (started playing in the late 80's). Of all the problems, coaching, community apathy and administration would top the list in that order for the situation I was in. We had enough talent to win games, but not enough to be a consistent playoff threat. Poor coaching kept us from maximizing the talent we had, and bad administration and apathy (students, community, and some coaches on staff) kept potential talent from coming out. The most demoralizing thing ever was watching 85+ kids try out for basketball, and only 40 come out for football.
To the coach that said he witnessed 3 fans show up for a game, I have been there. It was normal to see the coaching staff's family members outnumber the players' families and students at a game. Homecoming was the only exception.
"Can't win consistently" schools may be more the norm, but there are some "can't/won't win" schools out there.
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hawke
Sophomore Member
Posts: 209
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Post by hawke on Feb 26, 2009 21:46:20 GMT -6
All opinions have validity in them but one that I don't think has been talked about is identification. Phantom, you know how I feel about talent and kids. Everything is cyclical. Some years good or great talent other years not so good, etc. Remember my talk to your group the first year when I asked some guys where they were from and they gave me the name of the town that they came from and I went ballistics and emphasized that when anyone asked you where you were from you answered "name of the school" not the town you slept in. Though many of the so-called loser schools are not district jointures as you experienced, many have neighborhoods that have the same effect and the kids identify with that and not the school. As you know the place where we are at now has a history of being a "loser school." I found that same defeatist concept here. They did (and some still do) not identify with the school. By the way they were given the same speech I gave to you fellas in 1969 and now the majority of players and many the kids say where they are from (meaning school) and as you know in 2 years we have given them a winning season which they have had maybe once or twice in over 20 years. The schools that lose consistently, lose because of a lack of identification with the school. And to me, this is due in part to all the factions that make up the school - teachers, administrators, coaches, etc. Get your people to talk the school up for the kids. When they begin to take pride in that identification winning will take place. Hawke
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Post by bulldogoption on Feb 26, 2009 21:53:10 GMT -6
One example..........may be different elsewhere.........
The two worst teams in the conference have the lowest socioeconomic standards. Kids don't come from (AS) solid homes as the kids in other schools. When ma (and usually no pa) are worried about paychecks and survival, pushing kids to do their best usually isn't the first thing they do. These types of kids lack the drive for success, from what I've seen. As a result, these two schools are ALWAYS behind the eight ball with lower numbers, grades, discipline etc. ESPECIALLY in a sport like football where numbers are so important.
Its very clear in this situation. Many of those kids from the bottom two schools are sabotaged by life. Other schools in conference don't have the percentage of kids with that background to count on. They have a numbers advantage and will win the majority of the time.
I'm living it right now. I see it every day.............and from there everything else just snowballs
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Post by coachdawhip on Feb 26, 2009 22:29:33 GMT -6
One example..........may be different elsewhere......... The two worst teams in the conference have the lowest socioeconomic standards. Kids don't come from (AS) solid homes as the kids in other schools. When ma (and usually no pa) are worried about paychecks and survival, pushing kids to do their best usually isn't the first thing they do. These types of kids lack the drive for success, from what I've seen. As a result, these two schools are ALWAYS behind the eight ball with lower numbers, grades, discipline etc. ESPECIALLY in a sport like football where numbers are so important. Its very clear in this situation. Many of those kids from the bottom two schools are sabotaged by life. Other schools in conference don't have the percentage of kids with that background to count on. They have a numbers advantage and will win the majority of the time. I'm living it right now. I see it every day.............and from there everything else just snowballs bulldogoption, we were the exact opposite. All of our kids drive BMW's, jag's, and 4x4 F150's. Part of our program is our rival is winning and not all the kids from the middle school show up here. They are suppose to but magically don't and we have one true AD for the whole county. he doesn't care. 2nd, 3 miles down the road, is a private-school powerhouse. In GA, private schools play with public. A lot parents don't want there kid to play with the few who are bused in and send them there. To turn a program around it takes a commitment to the weight room, a commitment from the admin staff and a commitment to get coaches(don't have to be x's and o's guys just willing to work hard)
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Post by tripowingt on Feb 27, 2009 0:05:07 GMT -6
A reason could be all the best athletes are playing Basketball/Baseball. That's where recruiting kinda sorta comes into the play at the high school level.
I have seen schools where like 20 of the top 25 athletes were playing baseball exclusively, baseball coach didn't like 2 sport kids. There team was full of 6'2 200lbs future D1 baseball players.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 27, 2009 0:53:26 GMT -6
My Alma Mater went from 8-4 10 years ago to 0-10 last year with me on staff. Why couldn't we win. 1) Talent and lower level talent The previous HC's, didn't make the "chicken sh*t" Bigger, Faster or Stronger. When we got here 3 years ago, we had 5 players that could bench over 230. Now while Bench and football don't go hand and hand, you understand what I am talking about as far as strength. Speed- The fastest person on the team ran a 4.7 - 40 and 11.6 - 100m, after 2 years on me on staff, slower win we got here. I know you don't need Speed to win game, but in comparison as the track coach, we have never made the region finals in any sprint race and our region has produced the track state champion 8 out of the last 10 years. Our rival school who is 10 miles away had 13 young men sign football scholly's they also won state(The school we talked about that won't allow Spurrier to come back). But the state championship was played between top teams from our region. Out of the 4 that went to the playoffs. 3 won at least 2 games. Our region is part of the problem, because of the strength. But we just don't have the jimmies and the joes. But the other bigger issues. 2) Admin Support The HC was fired after 1 season we went 0-10, the coach before win after 2 seasons 3-17, before him 5 years, etc..... We had 3 coaches who taught in the building the principal told us she would get coaches in the building and qualified lay coaches. Didn't help us we had 6 coaches total on staff for a school of 1600 kids, where teams we play have 9 plus.. 3)Community & Parent Support We are a highly academic school, but so are others in our region. If Johnny has a test tomorrow and doesn't want to come to practice and misses and try to punish him, mom raises heck to the principal and we can't punish him for not coming, including no extra running. I know you stay bench him, but what happens when 50% of the team does this once per week? 3) While we have made them BFS. The huge gap between us and 6th place team in the region. Parents have a lack of commitment during the summer. Vacation for this and that even though we have an agreed upon 2 week off right after finals for vacation and the week of the 4th. To me the biggest things you need in a program are 1) Admin Support 2) Weightroom 3) Good Coaches and tenure. We got none so when you have a lack of talent and then you get no help to deal with those issues nothing happens. They have hired a new coach and told him he could get coaches in the building while interviewing, we have no spots available for next year. Another example on the gaps that need to be made in the area of making the kids better. My 4x100 team ran a time of 44.33 fastest time in 4 years. In our region out of 10 schools including us, 5 had there A and B teams run faster than my A team. phatnom, those big 3 were different when I went there, plus the talent was different. Our region had 63 kids sign scholly's this year 18 to a D-I school. Our school had one kid sign NAIA and another we are trying to send from GA to Minnesota to play D-II. The inmates run the asylum bud. If you have a situation where kids are missing practice as often as you say YOU HAVE NO CHOICE but to kick their tails in practice. You can change the way you do it to get the admin to support you, might have to be clever to do it. For example : "Men, every day we will have 50 hills to run at the conclusion of practice. We will run every single one of those hills UNLESS we have perfect attendance, everyone is here, no unexcused absences, no hills. we have to RUN MORE to make up for the lack of depth we will because those of you who cant practice cant play...if you miss practice you go to the bottom of the depth chart period" you absolutely must draw a line in the sand when it comes to attendance at practice. you must be willing to lose a game to save a program. that is the single most important thing I can tell you or anyone else who is in a situation where you need to CHANGE THE CULTURE. Obviously things will have to get "worse" before they can get better. You might have some kids quit, you might have parents complain but stick to your guns and do it your way. if you dont do it your way, the kids and their parents will continue to do things their way. one way or another you might lose your job. might as well lose it doing things your way.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 27, 2009 1:03:03 GMT -6
I have never seen an 0-10 team that...
1) executed plays well/avoided turnovers/penalties and clearly was disciplined and organized in their approach to the game. 2) tackled well and blocked well/played physical and hard from whistle to whistle 3) had strong kids who obviously were committed to the weight room 4) had dedicated coaches who show up and actually participate in the clinics /students of the game. class acts/professional/good sportsmanship/hold kids accountable/give clear expectations 5) had systems in place to allow creative use of what talent they had.
have you???
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Post by wingraid on Feb 27, 2009 3:35:00 GMT -6
I believe the core of it stems with the community mindset. Do the parents see the program as important or just rec league? Are the concepts of investment, accountability, and being part of something bigger than yourself.. being taught at home? Secondly, does the Admin see the program as co-curricular or extra-curricular? Does the Admin financially support the program? Are they willing to hire quality Coaches? Do they support the Coaches and their rules / decisions? Thirdly, are there productive feeder programs in place? Are they committed to running what the high school runs? Lastly, what is the culture on campus? Meaning, is a successful football team important? Or, does the community and student body suffer from the "Crab in the barrell" syndrome. Meaning, when somebody has success and starts to climb out of the barrell... do they try to pull them back down. I believe that these elements help to shape the culture that any Coach has to deal with prior to even worrying about playcalling or scheme. If these elements aren't in place you will have a tough time winning consistently! It is very difficult to change an entire culture from the inside out.
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Post by coachdawhip on Feb 27, 2009 5:47:07 GMT -6
My Alma Mater went from 8-4 10 years ago to 0-10 last year with me on staff. Why couldn't we win. 1) Talent and lower level talent The previous HC's, didn't make the "chicken sh*t" Bigger, Faster or Stronger. When we got here 3 years ago, we had 5 players that could bench over 230. Now while Bench and football don't go hand and hand, you understand what I am talking about as far as strength. Speed- The fastest person on the team ran a 4.7 - 40 and 11.6 - 100m, after 2 years on me on staff, slower win we got here. I know you don't need Speed to win game, but in comparison as the track coach, we have never made the region finals in any sprint race and our region has produced the track state champion 8 out of the last 10 years. Our rival school who is 10 miles away had 13 young men sign football scholly's they also won state(The school we talked about that won't allow Spurrier to come back). But the state championship was played between top teams from our region. Out of the 4 that went to the playoffs. 3 won at least 2 games. Our region is part of the problem, because of the strength. But we just don't have the jimmies and the joes. But the other bigger issues. 2) Admin Support The HC was fired after 1 season we went 0-10, the coach before win after 2 seasons 3-17, before him 5 years, etc..... We had 3 coaches who taught in the building the principal told us she would get coaches in the building and qualified lay coaches. Didn't help us we had 6 coaches total on staff for a school of 1600 kids, where teams we play have 9 plus.. 3)Community & Parent Support We are a highly academic school, but so are others in our region. If Johnny has a test tomorrow and doesn't want to come to practice and misses and try to punish him, mom raises heck to the principal and we can't punish him for not coming, including no extra running. I know you stay bench him, but what happens when 50% of the team does this once per week? 3) While we have made them BFS. The huge gap between us and 6th place team in the region. Parents have a lack of commitment during the summer. Vacation for this and that even though we have an agreed upon 2 week off right after finals for vacation and the week of the 4th. To me the biggest things you need in a program are 1) Admin Support 2) Weightroom 3) Good Coaches and tenure. We got none so when you have a lack of talent and then you get no help to deal with those issues nothing happens. They have hired a new coach and told him he could get coaches in the building while interviewing, we have no spots available for next year. Another example on the gaps that need to be made in the area of making the kids better. My 4x100 team ran a time of 44.33 fastest time in 4 years. In our region out of 10 schools including us, 5 had there A and B teams run faster than my A team. phatnom, those big 3 were different when I went there, plus the talent was different. Our region had 63 kids sign scholly's this year 18 to a D-I school. Our school had one kid sign NAIA and another we are trying to send from GA to Minnesota to play D-II. The inmates run the asylum bud. If you have a situation where kids are missing practice as often as you say YOU HAVE NO CHOICE but to kick their tails in practice. You can change the way you do it to get the admin to support you, might have to be clever to do it. For example : "Men, every day we will have 50 hills to run at the conclusion of practice. We will run every single one of those hills UNLESS we have perfect attendance, everyone is here, no unexcused absences, no hills. we have to RUN MORE to make up for the lack of depth we will because those of you who cant practice cant play...if you miss practice you go to the bottom of the depth chart period" you absolutely must draw a line in the sand when it comes to attendance at practice. you must be willing to lose a game to save a program. that is the single most important thing I can tell you or anyone else who is in a situation where you need to CHANGE THE CULTURE. Obviously things will have to get "worse" before they can get better. You might have some kids quit, you might have parents complain but stick to your guns and do it your way. if you dont do it your way, the kids and their parents will continue to do things their way. one way or another you might lose your job. might as well lose it doing things your way. I agree we did stick to our guns for the most part, went 0-10 in the 1st year and were shown the door. For the 1st 35 years of this school we had 3 HC's. For the past 10 we are now on HC number 5.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 27, 2009 6:01:29 GMT -6
What does "for the most part" mean?
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coachgeorge51
Sophomore Member
Cliches and mottos is mindless verbal nonsense.
Posts: 151
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Post by coachgeorge51 on Feb 27, 2009 8:27:29 GMT -6
There is a culture of losing at some schools that permeates the entire organization and it begins with the administration and trickles down - it is even found in the academics and attitudes of the teachers. I keep hearing that it is a "talent issue" and that "we just don't have the type of kids to win now".
No wonder the school is about to be taken over by the state. If the administration doesn't believe in the kids, you are screwed. Adults quit too..............don't forget that and I have seen firsthand coaches and administrators quit on our kids here - it is very sad.
I firmly believe you can win anywhere and kids will buy into a quality program and vision, but there has to be administrative support for the following:
1. HC in charge of hiring and firing assistant coaches 2. Mandatory year-round weightlifting 3. An understanding that it may get worse before it gets better - but, the plan will work if supported.
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Post by coachcb on Feb 27, 2009 8:31:26 GMT -6
One example..........may be different elsewhere......... [glow=red,2,300]The two worst teams in the conference have the lowest socioeconomic standards. Kids don't come from (AS) solid homes as the kids in other schools. When ma (and usually no pa) are worried about paychecks and survival, pushing kids to do their best usually isn't the first thing they do. [/glow] These types of kids lack the drive for success, from what I've seen. As a result, these two schools are ALWAYS behind the eight ball with lower numbers, grades, discipline etc. ESPECIALLY in a sport like football where numbers are so important. Its very clear in this situation. Many of those kids from the bottom two schools are sabotaged by life. Other schools in conference don't have the percentage of kids with that background to count on. They have a numbers advantage and will win the majority of the time. I'm living it right now. I see it every day.............and from there everything else just snowballs The "Single Parent Family" sydrome doesn't fly with me: half of all marriages in this country end in divorce. Even with remarriages, a third of kids under 18 are living in a single parent household. One third of our kids aren't competitive because there was one parent at home. My mother raised my brother and I alone and you've never found a more competitive pair. And, between the two of us, we hold 4 bachelor's degrees; so we learned something about working hard too.
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coachgeorge51
Sophomore Member
Cliches and mottos is mindless verbal nonsense.
Posts: 151
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Post by coachgeorge51 on Feb 27, 2009 8:38:16 GMT -6
Also, I learned that you cannot go to a school where "losing" has been accepted for a long time and the administrators who are currently in charge have been there for a long time as well.
They are probably the problem. Get the HE!! out of there asap, don't look back, just say thank you, tell them what a wonderful school they have and how happy you were to work there, and go have a beer with your buddies, knowing damn well they get what they get!
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Post by kcbazooka on Feb 27, 2009 8:56:54 GMT -6
Interesting topic -- why do some schools lose -- I have returned to a small school where we had some success years ago -- the school will be having its 60th year of football next year and have only had a dozen years where they have won six or more games.
As a head coach I have always been able to get out lots of kids but not so at this school. It is the poorest area economically in the conference and I think that has something to do with it. Less college graduates as parents might lead to less expectation from those parents. I also think more kids legimately have to work to help support the family. Right now our conference is pretty good - the #1 team is also the state champ -- they have 4 6'3 220 pounders on their line -- we don't have any students walking the hall that are that tall. that is something that probably runs in cycles...
we have a local internet board that our "angry" parents flock to - that the other schools don't seem to get involve in.
The first year I was back I had to go out and recruit the community to find all of my assistants - No one on staff coached besides me -- Now one assistant is from the teaching staff -- it is the only school I have been at where the head coach had to find his own assistants and that has been true for every sport.
Right now our administration has policies that I think punish the student athletes. For instance, if a student has ISS and they complete the ISS in one day they still can't compete or practice that day. The rest of our opponents don't operate in that matter so think that it puts us behnid. ALso, on the school level our freshmen can't take weightlifting they must take a co-ed pe class -- again that puts us behind other schools.
As you can tell it is very frustrating to me -- I have success at building programs but maybe this one is one I can't do it at.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 27, 2009 8:58:47 GMT -6
Also, I learned that you cannot go to a school where "losing" has been accepted for a long time and the administrators who are currently in charge have been there for a long time as well. They are probably the problem. Get the HE!! out of there asap, don't look back, just say thank you, tell them what a wonderful school they have and how happy you were to work there, and go have a beer with your buddies, knowing {censored} well they get what they get! GREAT POINT. Although we all love to think of ourselves as the next savior, the smart money says if a program has been a loser for a period of time, and the constants (administration) throughout that period are still there, you aren't going to be the savior. YOu are going to be the next sacrifice.
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coachgeorge51
Sophomore Member
Cliches and mottos is mindless verbal nonsense.
Posts: 151
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Post by coachgeorge51 on Feb 27, 2009 9:51:08 GMT -6
I have been having problems with my junior all-conference lineman. He is good, but his life is uncommitted and misses several times a week. He should be cut.
He is in track now and the head track coach, who is on my staff, said, "at least he is here some of the time." That is an exact quote. Quitter! The kid is a quitter, but the track coach is more of a quitter. His attitude towards that kid is exactly the tone from most people in this school, even the principal. I have never seen so many adults quit on kids as there are at this school.
Quitting comes in many forms....................look out for it because it is a cancer.
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Post by bulldogoption on Feb 27, 2009 9:52:18 GMT -6
One example..........may be different elsewhere......... [glow=red,2,300]The two worst teams in the conference have the lowest socioeconomic standards. Kids don't come from (AS) solid homes as the kids in other schools. When ma (and usually no pa) are worried about paychecks and survival, pushing kids to do their best usually isn't the first thing they do. [/glow] These types of kids lack the drive for success, from what I've seen. As a result, these two schools are ALWAYS behind the eight ball with lower numbers, grades, discipline etc. ESPECIALLY in a sport like football where numbers are so important. Its very clear in this situation. Many of those kids from the bottom two schools are sabotaged by life. Other schools in conference don't have the percentage of kids with that background to count on. They have a numbers advantage and will win the majority of the time. I'm living it right now. I see it every day.............and from there everything else just snowballs The "Single Parent Family" sydrome doesn't fly with me: half of all marriages in this country end in divorce. Even with remarriages, a third of kids under 18 are living in a single parent household. One third of our kids aren't competitive because there was one parent at home. My mother raised my brother and I alone and you've never found a more competitive pair. And, between the two of us, we hold 4 bachelor's degrees; so we learned something about working hard too. Coachcb.......... I didn't mean to imply that divorced kids can't be successful. I have had some great exceptions to that rule. My point, and maybe I didn't explain myself clearly enough, is that I would venture a guess, and I have no data to support it, that in a lower socioeconomic area there are a higher percentage of kids living in divorced households. And while YOU may be one of the successful kids, I feel that it puts kids at a disadvantage. I see it all the time. The kids who are sabatoged by life where I live are OFTEN coming from divorced household struggling to make ends meet. The expectations are different in those houses. God bless your mother for raising you right and having to do the work of both parents at times, but for every good mama like yours I see many who are struggling to make their own ends meet and keeping their kids out of trouble. You're right.......it is probably more of a socioeconomic thing than a divorce thing, but when I see the two together, its bad news.
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Post by coachnorm on Feb 27, 2009 10:20:22 GMT -6
Schools that foster a culture of losing are usually deficient in one or more of the following catagories: Administration Support Faculty Support Parent Support Commuity Support Comittment Talent Coaches (admin won't hire teachers who will coach too) They are also usually exceptionally good at the following: Making excuses Laziness Passing the buck Pointing the finger Apathy Here is an example: I spent a few seasons at one of these schools. Some good athletes and nice kids (mostly), but when it came to sports they didn't get it. I pushed the weight room and they fought it. Eventually I left. The following winter the parents call a meeting and say they need another coach, someone who will push off-season conditioning and knows his way around a wt room. Now here is the funny part. One lone parent stood up. He said the last two guys were on your kids about strength training, and had the expertise and you spit in thier face. What is not funny is the rest of the parents told him to shut up and go home. And so the cycle of losing continues. This is usually exactly it. Losing is a habit and it gets to be a habit even faster than winning so a head coach that decides to take on a job at a school like this has to change the culture and when it comes to that some guys who are great coaches can't get that done. There is often an element of the right guy in the right place at the right time to turn such a program around. I've seen schools that have never won consistently chew up and spit out great coaches and then suddenly be turned around when ALL the elements have come into place. The right coach at the right time, a better group of kids, sudden buy-in, better parents, an attitudinal change in the admin and the community there are so many factors that contribute to the success of the program and the coach is just one of them. In this day and age he has to try to influence all of the others and I don't know if that is always possible.
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Post by cnunley on Feb 27, 2009 12:23:11 GMT -6
In my experience it comes down to Momma's Teet. Seems that most kids feel that doing hard work is for college and the pros, not high schoolers.
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Post by phantom on Feb 27, 2009 12:29:41 GMT -6
In my experience it comes down to Momma's Teet. Seems that most kids feel that doing hard work is for college and the pros, not high schoolers. So, are there more mommas at some schools than at others?
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Post by cnunley on Feb 27, 2009 13:13:22 GMT -6
haha, seems like it from where i am at. more mommas and excuses than hard work and discipline.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2009 13:59:32 GMT -6
The other factor in this day and age is getting kids out. You can have a great coach with knowledge, work ethic, and a great weight program who will fail if he does not get kids out. This coach can "demand total commitment" and "coach the kids up." The big number is not as important as the athletes that can help them win.
We have some sports at our school that cannot get the kids out. They have good coaches but there is some perception about the sports that kids don't buy into. One sport is "too hard." A second sport has lost too many games the last two years. The third sport has kids that don't come out because they "don't like the coach."
These coaches recruit the halls and do all the right things but are losing numbers and success. Newsletters, open gyms, you name it and these coaches have done it.
You can tear apart all of those reasons but it doesn't matter unless the kids come out. That seems to be the biggest thing that I see in our area.
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Post by coachinghopeful on Feb 27, 2009 15:36:34 GMT -6
There is a culture of losing at some schools that permeates the entire organization and it begins with the administration and trickles down - it is even found in the academics and attitudes of the teachers. I keep hearing that it is a "talent issue" and that "we just don't have the type of kids to win now". No wonder the school is about to be taken over by the state. If the administration doesn't believe in the kids, you are screwed. Adults quit too..............don't forget that and I have seen firsthand coaches and administrators quit on our kids here - it is very sad. I firmly believe you can win anywhere and kids will buy into a quality program and vision, but there has to be administrative support for the following: 1. HC in charge of hiring and firing assistant coaches 2. Mandatory year-round weightlifting 3. An understanding that it may get worse before it gets better - but, the plan will work if supported. This is one of the wisest posts I've ever read on here.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 27, 2009 16:45:07 GMT -6
I dont hire my own ms coaches- trust me, that stinks I do control my own off season workouts and use a point system- it works I have admin support
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Post by coachcb on Feb 27, 2009 17:46:16 GMT -6
The "Single Parent Family" sydrome doesn't fly with me: half of all marriages in this country end in divorce. Even with remarriages, a third of kids under 18 are living in a single parent household. One third of our kids aren't competitive because there was one parent at home. My mother raised my brother and I alone and you've never found a more competitive pair. And, between the two of us, we hold 4 bachelor's degrees; so we learned something about working hard too. Coachcb.......... I didn't mean to imply that divorced kids can't be successful. I have had some great exceptions to that rule. My point, and maybe I didn't explain myself clearly enough, is that I would venture a guess, and I have no data to support it, that in a lower socioeconomic area there are a higher percentage of kids living in divorced households. And while YOU may be one of the successful kids, I feel that it puts kids at a disadvantage. I see it all the time. The kids who are sabatoged by life where I live are OFTEN coming from divorced household struggling to make ends meet. The expectations are different in those houses. God bless your mother for raising you right and having to do the work of both parents at times, but for every good mama like yours I see many who are struggling to make their own ends meet and keeping their kids out of trouble. You're right.......it is probably more of a socioeconomic thing than a divorce thing, but when I see the two together, its bad news. I do agree that combining poverty with a single parent household can be a serious issue. But, I do think that it starts with the divorced household and ends with the socioeconomic status. That is, a poor family becomes that much poorer when half of the income walks out the door. The major thing that kept my brother in line was the fact that my mom made sure we were supervised after school. Whether it was day care or sports; my mom made sure that we weren't out on our own, screwing around. Good thing too; my brother and I both have a bit of a pyro-side to us.
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Post by justryn2 on Feb 27, 2009 17:58:25 GMT -6
I think if anyone actually knew the answer to the question why some HS football programs consistently fail he could write his own ticket. There are probably as many reasons for programs to fail as their are failing programs. But, in addition to the things that coachgeorge51 listed, I think turning around a bad program starts with buy in from your players and coaching staff. If everyone believes in what they're doing and displays the type of commitment that comes from a feeling of ownership, there will be some successes. At least enough to crawl out of the "Can't win" category.
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