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Post by 19delta on Feb 15, 2009 10:05:23 GMT -6
I recently took a head coaching position. I left the interview believing that I would have 8 stipends. I found out last week that, in fact, I will only have 7 stipends. So, obviously, I wasn't happy about that. I am trying to see what we can do to get an 8th stipend but, if that doesn't happen, we will only have the 7 stipends. To further complicate matters, I have already put most of our staff together and it includes 8 guys.
My solution to the problem was to offer everyone a .8 stipend instead of the full 1.0 stipend. That way, everyone would get paid. However, I had one guy contact me and tell me that he wasn't willing to coach for anything less than a full stipend. Basically came down to the fact that he had been coaching for 15 years and didn't think that it was right that he would have to take a pay cut so guys with far less experience than him could stay on the staff.
My impression is to cut the guy loose. He's a good coach and a good guy, but my thought is if he is going to make this big of a deal over a few hundred bucks (keep in mind that I would be taking a paycut as well), it might be better off if he wasn't on board. Going into my first year as a head coach, I really don't want any issues with egos or bad attitudes on the staff.
So, I hate to lose the guy but, at the same time, I am kind of relieved that this happened because some "true colors" were shown.
Am I right to cut the guy loose?
I know that it is a bad situation with finding out after the fact that there aren't as many stipends as I thought there were. Thing about that...it is what it is...can't do anything about that now. We will either get an 8th stipend somehow or we won't...largely out of my hands at this point.
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Post by phantom on Feb 15, 2009 10:19:39 GMT -6
I recently took a head coaching position. I left the interview believing that I would have 8 stipends. I found out last week that, in fact, I will only have 7 stipends. So, obviously, I wasn't happy about that. I am trying to see what we can do to get an 8th stipend but, if that doesn't happen, we will only have the 7 stipends. To further complicate matters, I have already put most of our staff together and it includes 8 guys. My solution to the problem was to offer everyone a .8 stipend instead of the full 1.0 stipend. That way, everyone would get paid. However, I had one guy contact me and tell me that he wasn't willing to coach for anything less than a full stipend. Basically came down to the fact that he had been coaching for 15 years and didn't think that it was right that he would have to take a pay cut so guys with far less experience than him could stay on the staff. My impression is to cut the guy loose. He's a good coach and a good guy, but my thought is if he is going to make this big of a deal over a few hundred bucks (keep in mind that I would be taking a paycut as well), it might be better off if he wasn't on board. Going into my first year as a head coach, I really don't want any issues with egos or bad attitudes on the staff. So, I hate to lose the guy but, at the same time, I am kind of relieved that this happened because some "true colors" were shown. Am I right to cut the guy loose? I know that it is a bad situation with finding out after the fact that there aren't as many stipends as I thought there were. Thing about that...it is what it is...can't do anything about that now. We will either get an 8th stipend somehow or we won't...largely out of my hands at this point. How important is this guy?
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 15, 2009 10:24:09 GMT -6
And how "dangerous" is this guy
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Post by 19delta on Feb 15, 2009 10:37:19 GMT -6
I recently took a head coaching position. I left the interview believing that I would have 8 stipends. I found out last week that, in fact, I will only have 7 stipends. So, obviously, I wasn't happy about that. I am trying to see what we can do to get an 8th stipend but, if that doesn't happen, we will only have the 7 stipends. To further complicate matters, I have already put most of our staff together and it includes 8 guys. My solution to the problem was to offer everyone a .8 stipend instead of the full 1.0 stipend. That way, everyone would get paid. However, I had one guy contact me and tell me that he wasn't willing to coach for anything less than a full stipend. Basically came down to the fact that he had been coaching for 15 years and didn't think that it was right that he would have to take a pay cut so guys with far less experience than him could stay on the staff. My impression is to cut the guy loose. He's a good coach and a good guy, but my thought is if he is going to make this big of a deal over a few hundred bucks (keep in mind that I would be taking a paycut as well), it might be better off if he wasn't on board. Going into my first year as a head coach, I really don't want any issues with egos or bad attitudes on the staff. So, I hate to lose the guy but, at the same time, I am kind of relieved that this happened because some "true colors" were shown. Am I right to cut the guy loose? I know that it is a bad situation with finding out after the fact that there aren't as many stipends as I thought there were. Thing about that...it is what it is...can't do anything about that now. We will either get an 8th stipend somehow or we won't...largely out of my hands at this point. How important is this guy? He is replaceable, just like anyone else is.
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Post by coach4life on Feb 15, 2009 10:42:47 GMT -6
So when the guys with less experience want to do something he doesn't agree with is it going to be "You can't do that, I've been doing this longer than you and .... " or will it be something like "That won't work..." without offering why he thinks so?
Will he be willing to mentor the less experienced guys to their benefit and subsequently the team's? From what you described of your glimpse of his true colors it sounds like he is already putting himself above the rest of the staff and therefore his ego is going to create problems. If your gut is telling you to cut him loose, you are right to cut him loose.
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Post by 19delta on Feb 15, 2009 10:46:59 GMT -6
And how "dangerous" is this guy What do you mean by "dangerous"? Like I said, I am kind of glad that this happened...it actually ended up being a pretty decent way to find out if I was inheriting any malcontents. Kind of reminds me of the story about Hernando Cortez in Mexico in 1519... Cortez leaves Cuba without permission...he's in big trouble and if the Spanish authorities catch him, he's probably going to be executed. Anyway, by the time Cortez lands in Mexico, many of his guys are pretty anxious and want to go back to Cuba because they are worried about "guilt by association". So, Cortez lines up all of his guys on the beach after landing and makes an announcement. He says, "I know some of you guys want to go back to Cuba...No problem. Simply step forward to be recognized and I will put you back on a ship and send you back to Cuba...no harm, no foul." So, a bunch of Cortez's guys are thinking that this sounds like a good deal...they are going to get on the ships and go back to Cuba. So they step forward to be recognized. Cortez immediatley has the guys who step forward seized and then executes them in front of everyone else. Then, he has his ships burned and force-marches his guys across the Yucatan to Tenochtitlan. Ruthless, for sure...but Cortez sure knew how to root out any potential troublemakers!
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Post by dolomite on Feb 15, 2009 10:48:24 GMT -6
Maybe you could talk to your AD and see if it would be suicide to cut him loose. If he's a good coach than take it on the chin and either 1-give him the remainder out of fund raising or other funds if available 2-go to the coach that was left out and explain that you were only allowed 7 instead of eight and give him what you can collect from willing coaches and yourself. If this guy has been coaching for a long time I can sorta see his point. It seems kinda childish but you don't know his situation, maybe he justifies his time away from family by his stipend. It's sticky. If he's good don't run him off. Try to talk with him and let him know where your coming from. Have him give you some ideas on how he would handle this dilemma
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Post by John Knight on Feb 15, 2009 10:49:33 GMT -6
True colors? He was the one honest guy on your staff that told you how he really felt. He is your most important asset. The rest of them are yes men!
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Post by 19delta on Feb 15, 2009 10:55:00 GMT -6
Maybe you could talk to your AD and see if it would be suicide to cut him loose. If he's a good coach than take it on the chin and either 1-give him the remainder out of fund raising or other funds if available 2-go to the coach that was left out and explain that you were only allowed 7 instead of eight and give him what you can collect from willing coaches and yourself. If this guy has been coaching for a long time I can sorta see his point. It seems kinda childish but you don't know his situation, maybe he justifies his time away from family by his stipend. It's sticky. If he's good don't run him off. Try to talk with him and let him know where your coming from. Have him give you some ideas on how he would handle this dilemma This is what I'm leaning towards doing. I think we may be able to somehow come up with an 8th stipend so no one has to take less than full pay. Like I said, the guy is a really good coach and a heck of a good guy. I would hate to lose him, but the fact that he is making a big deal over a couple hundred bucks definitely gives me pause.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 15, 2009 11:01:58 GMT -6
by "dangerous" I mean if he was cut loose from the coaching staff, what is the potential for negative interactions with players/parents. Is he a teacher in the building? Is he a well-liked member of the community? If he became a serious malcontent, how much damage could he cause the program?
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 15, 2009 11:53:16 GMT -6
&^^% him. It took him what, 15 seconds to question your first decision as head coach? I say SEE YA CHUMP to that guy, hes lucky he wasnt the guy you chose to NO STIPEND in the first place. What a jerk.
Honestly, if you want to save yourself some greif just say " you get .8 like everyone else or you get nothing" and then give him the crap work too. Make him like assistant jv dline coach or something.
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Post by dal9000 on Feb 15, 2009 12:21:05 GMT -6
&^^% him. It took him what, 15 seconds to question your first decision as head coach? I say SEE YA CHUMP to that guy, hes lucky he wasnt the guy you chose to NO STIPEND in the first place. What a jerk. Honestly, if you want to save yourself some greif just say " you get .8 like everyone else or you get nothing" and then give him the crap work too. Make him like assistant jv dline coach or something. Y'know what I've noticed? Football coaches are drama queens in denial. We make such a ridiculously huge deal about how it's necessary to be "loyal" and how people who don't conform to our expectations are "backstabbing" us, but here's the thing -- in ANY other line of work, there would be nothing wrong with senior staff members being awfully upset about a 20% pay cut. Now, you can make a case that no one is living on their football stipend, and that's true enough -- but when you get right down to it, there's nothing wrong with wanting to make as much money as you can. Long story short? Man, settle down. This ain't some huge and terrible betrayal -- not by a long shot.
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Post by coachhensley on Feb 15, 2009 12:24:34 GMT -6
If the man is a good coach I say take 0.2 of the stipend out of your part of it and give it to him. That way he get's a full Stipend and no one but you loses any, so you should be able to handle yourself.
Of course if he isn't a good coach just don't bother with it, 0.8 or nothing.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 15, 2009 12:30:37 GMT -6
&^^% him. It took him what, 15 seconds to question your first decision as head coach? I say SEE YA CHUMP to that guy, hes lucky he wasnt the guy you chose to NO STIPEND in the first place. What a jerk. Honestly, if you want to save yourself some greif just say " you get .8 like everyone else or you get nothing" and then give him the crap work too. Make him like assistant jv dline coach or something. Y'know what I've noticed? Football coaches are drama queens in denial. We make such a ridiculously huge deal about how it's necessary to be "loyal" and how people who don't conform to our expectations are "backstabbing" us, but here's the thing -- in ANY other line of work, there would be nothing wrong with senior staff members being awfully upset about a 20% pay cut. Now, you can make a case that no one is living on their football stipend, and that's true enough -- but when you get right down to it, there's nothing wrong with wanting to make as much money as you can. Long story short? Man, settle down. This ain't some huge and terrible betrayal -- not by a long shot. right, IN ANY OTHER LINE OF WORK. look this is coaching football, not some other line of work. Most good coaches who are worth their salt know you DONT DO IT FOR THE MONEY and if the coach wants 8 stipends he creates 8 %$#ing stipends and the ASSISTANT COACH has to live with it. Thats bs that the ASSISTANT COACH tells the HEAD COACH what he works for. Take a hike bro. Drama queen r us. I see this guy as instant ego problem. "im worth more than the rest of the assistants".
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Post by wingtol on Feb 15, 2009 12:41:36 GMT -6
Don't you have different play levels according to experience or position? I assume it is different everywhere but if someone here has been coaching for 15 years and another guy has been around 2 or 3 guess who is getting paid more. I make more than guys I coach with, basically because I have more exp. and responsibility, and they know it an accept it. When I started out I knew I made the least amount of money because I was new. I hate to say it but I would be a bit pissed if I were in that situation. I would even look at paying your 2 least experienced or lower level or non-coordinators half a stipend or splitting them up among the less experienced something like that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2009 12:42:22 GMT -6
It doesn't sound like you feel you need this guy very much. Out of your 8 coaches, are two of them maybe quite a bit younger than everyone else? In some programs, it's common place to have the "young guys" split a sitpend and everyone else gets a full. Just one possible way around it.
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Post by coachd5085 on Feb 15, 2009 13:02:50 GMT -6
right, IN ANY OTHER LINE OF WORK. look this is coaching football, not some other line of work. Most good coaches who are worth their salt know you DONT DO IT FOR THE MONEY And yet, just a few threads down we are discussing coaches fulfilling contracts for seven figure salaries, and we see coaches leveraging their successes every year for more money.... Actually, I agree with the poster who said this coach might be a great asset. He let the header know, upfront without any hesitation, his opinion on the matter. No lingering, no letting this fester, no behind the back bitching. Just straight, in your face "Hey, this is the deal". This is not being a "prima donna" or drama queen. As far as being "worth" more, I find it interesting that at the H.S. level, it is customary to accept equal stipend %'s yet the work loads are rarely equitable (some coaches do little more than show up for practice with a whistle, some coaches contribute a great deal to non football tasks, some coaches do the vast majority of football related issues) , yet at the collegiate level, where the work loads are much more equitable if not skewed towards the lesser compensated coaches it is common to see coordinators making 3 to 4 times what their position coaches make.
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Post by buck42 on Feb 15, 2009 14:08:27 GMT -6
I can see both sides...This year (10th overall) I got paid the same as the DC as the JC WR coach that was at practice two times a week, never made a weekend meeting and left the season early to coach JV basketball. (IMO, the HC should have done something here...but he did not...it was not my role to make those decisions as the DC.) While we do not coach this game for the money, but you just do not mess with someone elses money. Money will cause more problems in ANY relationship than most anything else. A couple hundred dollars might not be a lot to you, but he might count on that for something. I know that I have my stipend dedicated to certain bills (taxes and such) each year. If I come up 20% short that puts a strain on other things...As someone else said, the stipend might be how he justifies being away from his family YEAR ROUND...If you cut his pay by 20% are you going to accept 20% less attendance and output from the coach...surely not...
Money is something you do not mess with....the fact that he did not sit on his hands like it did not bother him, tells me that he will level with you throughout the year. The other 7 guys are full of crap IMO because they acted like a 20% cut in stipend did not bother them...
Put the pressure on the AD and the principal to get you the extra stipend since they told you that you had it...If not tell the last man hired the situation and ask him to be a volunteer...unless you want to take the money out of your stipend? That will keep everyone happy....but you...
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newhc
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Post by newhc on Feb 15, 2009 14:16:24 GMT -6
I agree with Buck. When it comes down to money, I learned two things about it. Be up front and be honest about it. Either that, or take it out of your own, and maybe you guys can agree on a stipend that you would pay him.
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Post by John Knight on Feb 15, 2009 15:13:53 GMT -6
20% is $800 at my school.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 15, 2009 16:51:25 GMT -6
Don't you have different play levels according to experience or position? I assume it is different everywhere but if someone here has been coaching for 15 years and another guy has been around 2 or 3 guess who is getting paid more. I make more than guys I coach with, basically because I have more exp. and responsibility, and they know it an accept it. When I started out I knew I made the least amount of money because I was new. I hate to say it but I would be a bit {censored} if I were in that situation. I would even look at paying your 2 least experienced or lower level or non-coordinators half a stipend or splitting them up among the less experienced something like that. This doesnt seem that difficult to figure out to me. its .8 instead of 1.0 experience is still figured in. Then again I am a PE guy.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 15, 2009 16:56:32 GMT -6
I am actually really disappointed in reading some of this. We all talk about TEAM before self and PUTTING THE PROGRAM FIRST when it comes to making decisions. I would hope that the coaches on my staff would understand that if the school cant manage that stipend that year that ALL OF US TAKE THE HIT. In the OP it was made clear that every coach was still getting paid and everyone including the HC was taking a hit. Sure sounds like a TEAM THING and for someone on staff to say NAH BRA, NOT ME, I GOTZTA GIT MINE would piss me off. Just get ride of him and then everyone gets a raise just like that.
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Post by khalfie on Feb 15, 2009 17:34:00 GMT -6
Great posts all around... 1. You don't have a staff yet... with that in mind, you have to like a guy who's brutally honest. Sounds like a keeper to me. 2. You don't want a guy doing this for the money... got to have a love of this game, almost willing to do it for free... after 15 years... I could see it becoming about the money. Sounds like you should get rid of him to me. 3. And most importantly, when you meet with your "potential" staff, and you are breaking down the organization, the responsibilities, whom will be accountable for what... where does this guy fit in? Though all men were created equal... doesn't mean we are equal. You know if this guy is the goods or not... and the fact you keep calling him a "good coach", sounds to me as if he may be worth that additional .2. 4. Allow me to leave you with this... when buying a car... after haggling the price of said car... do you pay for the warranty? Do you get the Rustoleum underbelly? Do you buy insurance? Of course you do... ... This guy sounds like insurance for your program... he's not the same as the others... don't treat him as such... treat him like he deserves... And if he deserves his .2... give it up... If he deserves to be let go... because he's not worth the .2... do that... But if I was a new guy.... and I had some experience and some newbies on the staff... I wouldn't talk money with the group... I'd talk money with each individual... and similar to GM's... I'd lock my all star in first... and work down to my rookie... And the rookie would get whats left... if he wanted it... if he didn't... he'd be the one getting the boot. Create your depth chart, as you will for your QB... get them signed in order of importance... and then allow the chips to fall as they may.
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Post by jgordon1 on Feb 15, 2009 17:36:52 GMT -6
Just putting this out there. Why should all the coaches get paid the same? It's not done at the college or pro level. If you have the ability to cut salaries, you also have the abilty to divide the stipends as you see fit.... why can't you give more to the guy that is bustin his butt 7 days a week. I'll tell you what, I have been coaching for 20 years, stay late.. do weight room, clinics.. you know... same as you ..that why we are on the board. New guy gets hired good person.. nice family... coaches JV.. has actually missed varsity games.... Head coach lets this go on. What am I going to do about it? Nothing. The HC is not going to change the situation..... I have no control over the situation... I love the school I teach at and the administration too believe it or not... I love coaching football.. except for this one difference w/ my head coach.. I like him almost like my brother. in fact we have more personal conversations about things than I have w/ my brother. This is the way of HS teaching and coaching. On a different note.. you never give your players equal playing time even though they might work as hard..why should coaches receive equal pay
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Post by wingtol on Feb 15, 2009 18:06:54 GMT -6
I tell our players, and I am sure most do in some way, I will treat you all fairly but it might not be equal. I am not gonna put the kid who is last on the depth chart in for half a game just cause he shows up for practice everyday like the starters. We tell our players to work hard if you want PT, work hard to get what you feel like you deserve, you don't want to put in the time then you prob won't get all the opprtunities. So coaches shouldn't feel this way to? I am the most experienced guy on the staff(more so than our HC), have the most resp. of all the assistant coaches, do the most to effect the out comes of our games. Should I be happy if I get paid the same as the guy who stands there and holds cards for the scout team and runs a few drills during indy? No. I would be pissed if they lowered my salary. Can't get much lower than 1500.00 to start with but I would still be pissed off.
Maybe I mis-read it and maybe the stipends are more for each guy but I take it that they are all equal in this situation. So yeah if I was around for 15 years, a "good coach" I would be pissed if I was taking a cut and making the same as a 1,2,3rd year guy if I was putting in my time and working hard. At least he's honest. I was told when I got my first paid positin "I can give you this much. Other guys will get more since they have been around longer and have more responsiblity." That was that. I was fine with it cause I knew i was low man.
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Post by touchdowng on Feb 15, 2009 18:18:07 GMT -6
We have HC plus six stipends and we fund raise the other two.
I can't imagine any of my assistants having any issue with sharing their stipend if the fundraising fell through. I also can't imagine my two fundraised guys quitting or complaining if we came up with less or zero money.
Sounds like there are some ego issues that you'll need to tend to before the grind starts.
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Post by coachjoe3 on Feb 15, 2009 18:32:36 GMT -6
20% is $800 at my school. Are you hiring?
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Post by John Knight on Feb 15, 2009 18:35:09 GMT -6
NO, actually we lost 2 positions and the two with the least experience coached as volunteers. The head coach was told that he would be fired if the two coaches were paid by anyone. In OH it is not legal to fund raise pay coaches.
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Post by ajreaper on Feb 15, 2009 18:53:39 GMT -6
The number of stipends is an adminstrative issue how it's dealt with is up to the HC. Bottom line is as the HC you get to make the final decision and those that do not agree with it either must live with it or step down.
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Post by touchdownmaker on Feb 15, 2009 19:29:25 GMT -6
I still do not get the other side to this argument.
theres a need for an 8th coach...you cant pay an 8th coach because one guy wont give up some coin....fine, go with 7 coaches and make supercoach pick up the 8th guys job. seems to me that division of labor alone would be worth the .2
when I first started coaching, I coached two years with a full stipend and each year made more money. Then the third year because our numbers were growing, our HC wanted to bring in another guy. He divided our stipends equally and yknow what? we all had less work overall and a better team for it. This is just bizarre to me.
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