|
Post by khalfie on Jan 2, 2009 15:56:28 GMT -6
The Rose Bowls have been disappointing, but I don't think this argument gives USC and Texas enough credit as they've won the past four or five Rose Bowls. A LOT of teams have looked dreadful against those two schools this decade and Michigan's loss to Texas came down to a last second field goal--the 2005 Rose Bowl I believe. The Big Ten also, despite Ohio State's performance in the past two national title games, has a winning record against the SEC in bowl games the past seven years--10-9 or something like that counting Iowa's win (delta, did you conveniently forget that with your first post?) and Michigan State's loss yesterday. I'm not saying things are good--the Big Ten does have the worse record out of the BCS conferences in bowl games the last five or so years. But, I don't think it's as bad as this thread makes it sound. Excellent post Wolve... When discussing the Big 10 and their bowl losses... its never mentioned how we are playing the best teams in the nation... and are being lawded for not beating them? Even this year... USC Texas Georgia Missouri South carolina... Who matches up with USC and Texas... besides USC, Texas, Ok, and Florida... if those teams aren't facing each other... they're going to crush... Big 10 gets two of them... Georgia and Missouri... both were supposed to be outstanding... only weren't outstanding after getting beat by nations best... sure Missou and Georgia both lost a game they shouldn't have... but they are still outstanding teams... Matchups have killed the Big 10... shame on the Big for not winning any of these big games, but these are better teams they are facing... Iowa faced a worst team.... and destroyed them... Its the matchups.
|
|
|
Post by jangalang on Jan 2, 2009 16:14:48 GMT -6
doesn't college football prove that scheme don't matter ? And ultimately, in college football, whoever recruits the best, wins the most games? If that being the case, then the basic premise is recruiting........where can you pull recruits from, and what is the quality of those recruits? Wasn't Ed Orgeron that said, "The planes fly South, they don't fly North".? I hear ya... But recruiting is such a crap shoot. Johnny stud boy, was the man in high school, couldn't crack the line up in college... What's the difference between the Sanchez kid at USC and the Marve kid at U of Miami... both studs in HS... great recruits... but one gets it done and the other stuggles. I guess my point is... we don't know good recruits... until they have made good. And many times... when we talk about talented teams... they have the 1 or 2 premiere athlets, but its a bunch of kids I'd never heard of... and maybe that's just me... But Percy Harvin? Who was he in Hs? Sam Bradford? Didn't know a thing... didn't see him in the QB Elite competition... And don't even get me started about O'linemen... We have the recruitiing gurus, grading recruiting classes... but we already know how shady a business that is... and again... there are entirely too many high schools, for there to not be enough talent to go around. Stud from the Illinois area... isn't as studly as the stud from Florida... because Florida has Spring ball? Is the learning curve that steep from HS to College? I'm not saying I know the answers... I don't know if we are even asking the right questions. USC has 3 backs with 600 yds a piece... I've heard of McKnight... the other two... didn't know a thing... and they are similarly talented..I agree with your premise, but can't help myself. Sam Bradford **** recruiting.scout.com/a.z?s=73&p=8&c=1&nid=1801395Percy Harvin ***** #1 in the country at his position rivals100.rivals.com/viewprospect.asp?pr_key=26296&Sport=1
|
|
|
Post by wingtol on Jan 2, 2009 16:19:31 GMT -6
I guess the only thing that will solve this is................an actual D-1 playoff system.
Oh to dream......
|
|
|
Post by khalfie on Jan 2, 2009 16:31:16 GMT -6
Hill larry Us... bad examples huh? How about this... Top 10 QB's, RB's, and WR's from 2005... Pro-style quarterback Stars RR Ht/Wt/40 Hometown Rank Schools Mark Sanchez 6.1 6-4/211/4.7 Mission Viejo, CA 1 Southern Cal Ben Olson - 6-5/235/- Thousand Oaks, CA NR UCLA Jonathan Crompton 6.0 6-3/211/4.8 Waynesville, NC 2 Tennessee Harrison Beck 5.9 6-1/205/4.67 Clearwater, FL 3 Nebraska Derek Shaw 5.9 6-4/205/4.75 Oceanside, CA 4 Arizona State Willie Tuitama 5.9 6-2/212/5.09 Stockton, CA 5 Arizona Rob Schoenhoft 5.8 6-5/227/4.8 Cincinnati, OH 6 Ohio State Joseph Ayoob - 6-3/200/- San Francisco, CA NR California Matt Moore - 6-4/190/4.8 Newhall, CA NR Oregon State Joe Cox 5.7 6-1/192/4.65 Charlotte, NC 7 Georgia Recognize anyone else? All-purpose back Stars RR Ht/Wt/40 Hometown Rank Schools Antone Smith 6.1 5-8/181/4.3 Pahokee, FL 1 Florida State LaMarcus Coker 6.0 5-10/184/4.3 Antioch, TN 2 Tennessee Russell Ball 5.9 5-9/165/4.3 La Marque, TX 3 Florida State Maurice Wells 5.8 5-9/177/4.44 Jacksonville, FL 4 Ohio State Richie Rich 5.8 5-9/177/4.44 Marietta, GA 5 North Carolina Dion Foster 5.7 5-9/180/- Oak Lawn, IL 6 Wisconsin Keegan Herring 5.7 5-9/190/4.4 Peoria, AZ 7 Arizona State Terrius Purvey 5.7 5-10/177/4.5 Gainesville, TX 8 list Jahre Cheeseman 5.7 5-8/176/4.4 Voorhees, NJ 9 Virginia Tech Jerrell Wilkerson 5.7 5-7/170/4.41 San Antonio, TX 10 Texas How about now? Wide Receiver Stars RR Ht/Wt/40 Hometown Rank Schools Patrick Turner 6.1 6-5/210/4.55 Nashville, TN 1 Southern Cal Fred Rouse 6.1 6-4/190/4.4 Tallahassee, FL 2 Florida State DeSean Jackson 6.1 5-11/170/4.43 Long Beach, CA 3 California Larry Brackins - 6-5/220/4.5 Poplarville, MS NR list Julius McClellan - 6-4/220/4.4 Clarksdale, MS NR list Mohamed Massaquoi 6.0 6-2/190/4.43 Charlotte, NC 4 Georgia Mario Manningham 6.0 6-0/174/4.4 Warren, OH 5 Michigan Malcolm Kelly 6.0 6-4/200/4.5 Longview, TX 6 Oklahoma Selwyn Lymon 6.0 6-4/190/4.4 Fort Wayne, IN 7 Purdue Eric Huggins 5.9 6-3/186/4.48 Conway, SC 8 Oklahoma A few of these... which being a WR should translate the best to the High school game.
|
|
|
Post by utchuckd on Jan 2, 2009 16:33:14 GMT -6
Matchups have killed the Big 10... shame on the Big for not winning any of these big games, but these are better teams they are facing... The Big 10 is facing the same thing the SEC is. When you get 2 teams in the BCS it drops the ranking of the teams eligible for the next bowl games in line.
|
|
dgs
Junior Member
Posts: 295
|
Post by dgs on Jan 2, 2009 17:12:41 GMT -6
I live in Big 12 country so I am just asking, does the Big 10 have tougher academic requirements that makes more difficult to get as many quaity players into their programs?
|
|
|
Post by wingtol on Jan 2, 2009 17:17:19 GMT -6
I live in Big 12 country so I am just asking, does the Big 10 have tougher academic requirements that makes more difficult to get as many quaity players into their programs? No just below freezing temps in winter They get quality players, 3rd best conf. at getting guys to the nfl. Just a different brand of ball.
|
|
|
Post by khalfie on Jan 2, 2009 17:19:13 GMT -6
Hill larry Us... bad examples huh? How about this... Top 10 QB's, RB's, and WR's from 2005... Pro-style quarterback Stars RR Ht/Wt/40 Hometown Rank Schools Mark Sanchez 6.1 6-4/211/4.7 Mission Viejo, CA 1 Southern Cal Ben Olson - 6-5/235/- Thousand Oaks, CA NR UCLA Jonathan Crompton 6.0 6-3/211/4.8 Waynesville, NC 2 Tennessee Harrison Beck 5.9 6-1/205/4.67 Clearwater, FL 3 Nebraska Derek Shaw 5.9 6-4/205/4.75 Oceanside, CA 4 Arizona State Willie Tuitama 5.9 6-2/212/5.09 Stockton, CA 5 Arizona Rob Schoenhoft 5.8 6-5/227/4.8 Cincinnati, OH 6 Ohio State Joseph Ayoob - 6-3/200/- San Francisco, CA NR California Matt Moore - 6-4/190/4.8 Newhall, CA NR Oregon State Joe Cox 5.7 6-1/192/4.65 Charlotte, NC 7 Georgia Recognize anyone else? All-purpose back Stars RR Ht/Wt/40 Hometown Rank Schools Antone Smith 6.1 5-8/181/4.3 Pahokee, FL 1 Florida State LaMarcus Coker 6.0 5-10/184/4.3 Antioch, TN 2 Tennessee Russell Ball 5.9 5-9/165/4.3 La Marque, TX 3 Florida State Maurice Wells 5.8 5-9/177/4.44 Jacksonville, FL 4 Ohio State Richie Rich 5.8 5-9/177/4.44 Marietta, GA 5 North Carolina Dion Foster 5.7 5-9/180/- Oak Lawn, IL 6 Wisconsin Keegan Herring 5.7 5-9/190/4.4 Peoria, AZ 7 Arizona State Terrius Purvey 5.7 5-10/177/4.5 Gainesville, TX 8 list Jahre Cheeseman 5.7 5-8/176/4.4 Voorhees, NJ 9 Virginia Tech Jerrell Wilkerson 5.7 5-7/170/4.41 San Antonio, TX 10 Texas How about now? Wide Receiver Stars RR Ht/Wt/40 Hometown Rank Schools Patrick Turner 6.1 6-5/210/4.55 Nashville, TN 1 Southern Cal Fred Rouse 6.1 6-4/190/4.4 Tallahassee, FL 2 Florida State DeSean Jackson 6.1 5-11/170/4.43 Long Beach, CA 3 California Larry Brackins - 6-5/220/4.5 Poplarville, MS NR list Julius McClellan - 6-4/220/4.4 Clarksdale, MS NR list Mohamed Massaquoi 6.0 6-2/190/4.43 Charlotte, NC 4 Georgia Mario Manningham 6.0 6-0/174/4.4 Warren, OH 5 Michigan Malcolm Kelly 6.0 6-4/200/4.5 Longview, TX 6 Oklahoma Selwyn Lymon 6.0 6-4/190/4.4 Fort Wayne, IN 7 Purdue Eric Huggins 5.9 6-3/186/4.48 Conway, SC 8 Oklahoma A few of these... which being a WR should translate the best to the High school game. Of the aforementioned quality players... how many panned out? I think this list from 2005 speaks to just how inconsistent the recruiting process is... I don't recognize many of the "supposed" best kids from 2005 Many should be graduating... or if they really met their potential... left for the league early?
|
|
|
Post by chadp56 on Jan 2, 2009 17:55:48 GMT -6
Plus, what 18 year old speedster wants to move to Michigan when he can be in Soutern Cal or Florida? There is some truth in this. Ronald Johnson had a nice game for USC, he is from Muskegon Michigan. He could have gone anywhere, I can't blame him for picking there. It seems like the hot recruiting areas are places where they have spring ball in high school and stuff like that. The kids get a lot more football in. The rules are pretty restrictive in some of these states. Also, I think the fact that there are some colleges in the South that have new D1 programs makes it a little harder to get some of those kids to come up north to play, so that could account for a little bit of a slip in talent in the Big 10 as well.
|
|
|
Post by jangalang on Jan 2, 2009 18:52:21 GMT -6
Hill larry Us... bad examples huh? How about this... Top 10 QB's, RB's, and WR's from 2005... Pro-style quarterback Stars RR Ht/Wt/40 Hometown Rank Schools Mark Sanchez 6.1 6-4/211/4.7 Mission Viejo, CA 1 Southern Cal Ben Olson - 6-5/235/- Thousand Oaks, CA NR UCLA Jonathan Crompton 6.0 6-3/211/4.8 Waynesville, NC 2 Tennessee Harrison Beck 5.9 6-1/205/4.67 Clearwater, FL 3 Nebraska Derek Shaw 5.9 6-4/205/4.75 Oceanside, CA 4 Arizona State Willie Tuitama 5.9 6-2/212/5.09 Stockton, CA 5 Arizona Rob Schoenhoft 5.8 6-5/227/4.8 Cincinnati, OH 6 Ohio State Joseph Ayoob - 6-3/200/- San Francisco, CA NR California Matt Moore - 6-4/190/4.8 Newhall, CA NR Oregon State Joe Cox 5.7 6-1/192/4.65 Charlotte, NC 7 Georgia Recognize anyone else? All-purpose back Stars RR Ht/Wt/40 Hometown Rank Schools Antone Smith 6.1 5-8/181/4.3 Pahokee, FL 1 Florida State LaMarcus Coker 6.0 5-10/184/4.3 Antioch, TN 2 Tennessee Russell Ball 5.9 5-9/165/4.3 La Marque, TX 3 Florida State Maurice Wells 5.8 5-9/177/4.44 Jacksonville, FL 4 Ohio State Richie Rich 5.8 5-9/177/4.44 Marietta, GA 5 North Carolina Dion Foster 5.7 5-9/180/- Oak Lawn, IL 6 Wisconsin Keegan Herring 5.7 5-9/190/4.4 Peoria, AZ 7 Arizona State Terrius Purvey 5.7 5-10/177/4.5 Gainesville, TX 8 list Jahre Cheeseman 5.7 5-8/176/4.4 Voorhees, NJ 9 Virginia Tech Jerrell Wilkerson 5.7 5-7/170/4.41 San Antonio, TX 10 Texas How about now? Wide Receiver Stars RR Ht/Wt/40 Hometown Rank Schools Patrick Turner 6.1 6-5/210/4.55 Nashville, TN 1 Southern Cal Fred Rouse 6.1 6-4/190/4.4 Tallahassee, FL 2 Florida State DeSean Jackson 6.1 5-11/170/4.43 Long Beach, CA 3 California Larry Brackins - 6-5/220/4.5 Poplarville, MS NR list Julius McClellan - 6-4/220/4.4 Clarksdale, MS NR list Mohamed Massaquoi 6.0 6-2/190/4.43 Charlotte, NC 4 Georgia Mario Manningham 6.0 6-0/174/4.4 Warren, OH 5 Michigan Malcolm Kelly 6.0 6-4/200/4.5 Longview, TX 6 Oklahoma Selwyn Lymon 6.0 6-4/190/4.4 Fort Wayne, IN 7 Purdue Eric Huggins 5.9 6-3/186/4.48 Conway, SC 8 Oklahoma A few of these... which being a WR should translate the best to the High school game. Of the aforementioned quality players... how many panned out? I think this list from 2005 speaks to just how inconsistent the recruiting process is... I don't recognize many of the "supposed" best kids from 2005 Many should be graduating... or if they really met their potential... left for the league early? Khalfie, Sorry if I ticked you off, but I was just letting you know that your examples did not support your thought (Harvin and Bradford). I agree with you to an extent about the recruiting process, but look at the teams that have been recruiting well over the past 5 years, and tell me that doesn't tell you something about the importance of recruiting rankings, according to Rivals (** indicate National Champion from 2004-2008): 2004 1. USC** 2. LSU** 3. FSU 4. Miami 5. Michigan 2005 1. USC** 2. FSU 3. Oklahoma 4. Tennessee 5. Nebraska 2006 1. USC** 2. Florida** 3. FSU 4. Georgia 5. Texas** 2007 1. Florida** 2. USC** 3. Tennessee 4. LSU** 5. Texas ** 2008 1. Alabama 2. Notre Dame 3. Florida** 4. Ohio St. 5. Miami The last 5 national champions (LSU, USC, Texas, Florida, LSU) are all listed on these lists multiple times. So, while all recruits don't pan out, the ratings systems are somewhat reliable.
|
|
|
Post by khalfie on Jan 2, 2009 18:58:11 GMT -6
I'm not ticked off jang...
Those are excellent points...
I've learned a lot...
I tried to fight it... but recruiting is definitely a good indicator of which teams will be contending for NC's...
|
|
|
Post by coachinghopeful on Jan 2, 2009 19:51:38 GMT -6
I don't really buy the talent thing. Yes, California and the Gulf Coastal states from Texas to Virginia is where most football talent comes from, but Ohio and Pennsylvania are usually rated right up with all but the top 3 (TX, FL, and CA) year in and out as far as prospects go. If you listen to the major recruiting rankings, the Big 10 teams also do just as well in national recruiting as their SEC, Big 12, or Pac 10 counterparts, and the Big 10 sends just about as many guys on to successful NFL careers, as well. Like with Notre Dame, it's not a talent issue.
I do detect some coaching and cultural issues.
When I watch the Big 10 in non-conference games against other good teams, what I'm struck by is a lack of toughness up front on both sides of the ball. It seems like the "big" offensive lines and defenses of the Big 10 always get pushed around by the (slightly)"smaller and quicker" lines of the other major conferences, yet those same players from the Big 10 are often taken high in the NFL draft and have successful pro careers. The other conferences may have a little more overall speed on defense or at the skill positions, but each Big 10 team has their own racehorses who are frequently even a little bigger. Especially the elite teams: OSU, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Penn St, though with the way the Big 10 performs in bowls and non-conference matchups against good teams, you've got to wonder if those "elite" teams are even that elite" in the first place.
To me, it seems like coaching and the AD culture may be a factor here. I've heard coaches at Div 1 programs with no ties to either conference flat out declare "They play better football in the Big 10 than the SEC" because "that's how the game is supposed to be played!" Ironically, these coaches usually get it handed to them when they face SEC teams. Everyone said Joe Tiller's offense would never work in the Big 10. I think it's safe to say that it did.
As dubber pointed out, there's long been a very strong bias in the Big 10 toward conservative, traditional pro style power offenses. It's cookie cutter. There are very few teams that spread the field or run the option, and the ones that do it just aren't very good at it. Even teams with scrambling QBs seldom do things to take advantage of their abilities. Big 10 offenses will basically just come out and try to hit you with Iso, IZ, a counter, and then PA pass. If their opponents stuff the run for a few series and score quickly, all the Big 10 teams (except Purdue) have got are generic drop back passing games that make their (frequently mediocre) QBs into sitting ducks for pass rushing DL who know what's coming.
Defensively, the traditional emphasis on size at DT and MLB makes them more vulnerable to misdirection and weakens their inside pass rush. It's good to have 1 big DT to clog the middle, but 2 or 3 just means you have too many guys who can't rush the QB or pursue outside. This reliance on sheer physical dominance at the point of attack also reinforces a lack of creativity. Penn State is almost always 3 deep with 8 in the box, for example, and no one in the Big 10 ever has a blitz package worth a damn. The attitude, from the coaches on down, is that they'll win because their athletes are going to be superior and more disciplined than yours at the point of attack. When that's close, it all comes down to scheme and that's where the Big 10 DCs often fail. Maybe because of their size, the Big 10 defenders always seem to wear down as the game goes on, too. They'll play solid for the first half or so, but by the 4th quarter they're a step slower than their opposition, which makes any lack of speed anywhere that much more of a liability.
|
|
|
Post by Coach Huey on Jan 2, 2009 20:17:12 GMT -6
perception isn't always reality ...
now, i have no idea what the hell people are even talking about here or why ... BUT, to say the big 10 is "run it, pound it" league is more perception (what we here from talking heads on espn) than it is reality (stats)
the big 10 had 3 schools in top 30 for passing yardage and 6 teams in the top 60...
the big 10 had 5 schools in the top 50 for passing efficiency... with indiana being the lowest ranked team in passing efficiency - higher than 5 bowl teams (boston college, virginia tech, kentucky, la. tech, and connecticut) --- tennessee, mississippi state and auburn also lower
what does that tell us? about as much as these other posts ... none of this will help me win a ball game next year nor will it influence who i root for .... lol
but, from the data, doesn't appear to be much truth to the perception that the big 10 is merely a one dimensional league -- at least no more so than the big 12, the sec, the pac 10, the north-cali independent league, the gulf-coast league, or district 5-5A ...
|
|
|
Post by wingt74 on Jan 2, 2009 21:02:13 GMT -6
perception isn't always reality ... now, i have no idea what the hell people are even talking about here or why ... BUT, to say the big 10 is "run it, pound it" league is more perception (what we here from talking heads on espn) than it is reality (stats) the big 10 had 3 schools in top 30 for passing yardage and 6 teams in the top 60... the big 10 had 5 schools in the top 50 for passing efficiency... with indiana being the lowest ranked team in passing efficiency - higher than 5 bowl teams (boston college, virginia tech, kentucky, la. tech, and connecticut) --- tennessee, mississippi state and auburn also lower what does that tell us? about as much as these other posts ... none of this will help me win a ball game next year nor will it influence who i root for .... lol but, from the data, doesn't appear to be much truth to the perception that the big 10 is merely a one dimensional league -- at least no more so than the big 12, the sec, the pac 10, the north-cali independent league, the gulf-coast league, or district 5-5A ... I thought for SURE you would lock this thread after this post Huey. I guess the only thing that will solve this is................an actual D-1 playoff system. Oh to dream...... Gotta let some of the "fan" style threads go.
|
|
|
Post by tog on Jan 2, 2009 21:04:05 GMT -6
I almost did on page1
how this applies to me being a better coach i don't know
it is like rubbernecking at the scene of an accident though
|
|
|
Post by sgvcoach on Jan 3, 2009 1:51:51 GMT -6
But interesting thing about USC. Granted they are extremely good. However, they have pretty much had the deck stacked in their favor. When has USC EVER gone into a hostile environme nt to face the likes of a Florida or a Texas, Penn State and come out on top? They never do it. They play all their BIG games in the Coliseum and or the Rose Bowl. Basically a home game for them. Sure they go to Virginia or Arkansas. These teams aren;t elite. But they would not be dominant if they had to play at Texas or in the Orange Bowl etc. The PAC 10 did well in the bowls this year but remeber they were 1-6 vs the Mountain west to start the year off.
|
|
|
Post by spreadattack on Jan 3, 2009 8:43:19 GMT -6
Here's my question: if the SEC has a monopoly on all this speed, then why the heck did Utah look so darn fast? Again, I think this goes back to Huey's thing: perception over reality and a meme that keeps getting carried on. If the roles were reversed it would be about being physical and all this stuff, nevermind that it seems every Big 10 team (sans Mich St and Iowa) lines up in MORE shotgun and spread formations than the SEC, but hey, that's my perception as someone who watches a lot of big 10 ball. Anyway.... Gotta act fast (I'm sorry I laugh at this image every time I see it)
|
|
tedseay
Sophomore Member
Posts: 164
|
Post by tedseay on Jan 4, 2009 4:35:19 GMT -6
Here's my question: if the SEC has a monopoly on all this speed, then why the heck did Utah look so darn fast? Chris: I don't think that is the point of this thread. I think there are actually a few themes at work here, but nothing as fanboyish as "Big 10 Sux" or "SEC Roolz": 1) Warm-weather schools seem to have an unfair advantage in recruiting certain types of athletes; 2) Elite teams that embrace innovations sooner tend to stay closer to the top of the pyramid over time; 3) The Big-10 power elite (Michigan, TOSU, PSU) appear to have suffered from both of these deficits more than others, and this to me suggests a complacency which has grown up over the years. And lest we forget the former 800-pound gorilla, Notre Dame, I'd say that goes double for them. Supporting evidence: 1) On average, fast receivers, fast linebackers and fast D-linemen tend to head south, or at least not embrace the Great White North. I'd guess more blue-chippers from Ohio, Michigan and Pennsylvania head to Florida, Greater Texas (including Oklahoma) and southern California than the other way around -- probably by a large factor. That said, there seems to be less variation among the other positions -- QB, RB and DB seem to have less of a regional bias in the schools the best ones choose. In the case of the so-called glamor positions, northern schools have always seemed to hold their own in recruiting; not sure about DB's, perhaps the best ones head south as well. 2) Texas, USC and Oklahoma returned to prominence after down periods by being closer to the cutting edge, scheme-wise, than TOSU, PSU or Michigan. Desperation is usually the mother of innovation, which is why really sucky teams like Texas Tech try the bizarre stuff like Air Raid (or Hawaii with Run & Shoot). Even in years that they have been abused in bowl games, however, the traditional northern powers have rarely been desperate. Michigan appears to be changing that trend, but we'll have to see how Rich Rod does there -- and how much time he is given to succeed. What about TOSU, some may ask? They've played for the national championship several times in the past decade. To which I would answer yes, but they stank up the joint most times, and barely held off a much faster Miami team in their championship season. To me, Ohio State is the success story which defines the effects of the factors I mention above. They're good, but not truly elite -- and I think if Rodriguez turns Michigan around his way, they will start beating TOSU like a drum. I'll be the first to admit there are counter-examples to my points above, but I think generally speaking the teams that opened up their thinking to embrace speed have done better over time -- that's how Miami became an elite program in the first place, and I wouldn't count them out from returning to the top ranks just yet, due to the advantages I mentioned. All, as ever, IMO.
|
|
|
Post by wingtol on Jan 4, 2009 9:57:12 GMT -6
What role does the development of players play in this whole thing? Not so sure what they are doing now but it seemed that some Big-10 teams didn't have the best strength programs in the past. I know of a few former players at big-10 schools who complained about some of the programs they had to use and they would try and do their own training as much as possible. Just wondering if that could play a role in the whole thing.
|
|
|
Post by pantherpride91 on Jan 5, 2009 13:35:23 GMT -6
I am a diehard Ohio State and can not speak as much on the rest of the Big 10, but I believe that one of the biggest problems for OSU is they have to get out and play people.
Outside of Texas and USC the out of conference schedule is filled with MAC schools and Youngstown State. I know what Tressel is trying to do and I applaud him for giving the "little guys" a shot, but he needs to schedule one of those per year. He can not have Youngstown State and Akron on the same schedule. They need to play one of those teams a year then get out and play teams outside Ohio. We have great football talent in Ohio but we are not a state known for great speed.
Look at the schedule from this year. Outside of USC, OSU did not leave Big 10 country. Outside of Troy and USC, they did not play anyone outside of Big 10 country. I would love to see a home and home with UT again, FSU, Miami, Oklahoma, or a top notch school in a speed region of the country and then go play a mid-level Big 12 or SEC school.
Ohio State on its name alone attracts players. However, getting a kid to Columbus compared to Gainesville or Los Angeles is going to take more than just a name, especially these days.
|
|
|
Post by rhscoachbh on Jan 6, 2009 0:35:47 GMT -6
But interesting thing about USC. Granted they are extremely good. However, they have pretty much had the deck stacked in their favor. When has USC EVER gone into a hostile environme nt to face the likes of a Florida or a Texas, Penn State and come out on top? They never do it. They play all their BIG games in the Coliseum and or the Rose Bowl. Basically a home game for them. Sure they go to Virginia or Arkansas. These teams aren;t elite. But they would not be dominant if they had to play at Texas or in the Orange Bowl etc. The PAC 10 did well in the bowls this year but remeber they were 1-6 vs the Mountain west to start the year off. SC went to Washington, D.C. to play VaTech a couple years ago, crushed Oklahoma in the Orange Bowl, made trips to Arkansas, Auburn and Nebraska. Next year they will be traveling to Ohio State to play. To say they never play a big game outside of the Coliseum is ludicrous. Not only that they play Notre Dame every other year in South Bend. They routinely play the toughest OOC schedule every year. Oh, they also played a tough Virginia team at Virginia to open up the season.
|
|
|
Post by davecisar on Jan 6, 2009 7:11:33 GMT -6
OSU gave tu everything they wanted and more last night. Impressive run game, even with Wells sitting out the second half. Pryor is a specimen, doesnt even look like hes trying he is so fluid, very fun to watch. If he can improve his throws watch out for these guys. Interesting to see how many schools moving toward the QB that is an athlete and can run as well as throw. Great pressure on defense most of the night. As a Big 12 guy and Mack Brown fan, I was rooting for tu, but had to switch to OSU after they showed so much fight.
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Jan 6, 2009 8:03:30 GMT -6
back to the whole 'recruitment' argument .........
The one thing I couldn't help but think about last night was how much different / a difference Tyrelle Pryor made for the Buckeyes. How much of a difference would he have made for Michigan (won at least 2 games with him?)? It really wasn't much of the schemes or motivations or anything else, per se......Would the Buckeyes been in this game if Boeckman was Q'ing the whole season (probably, because there were no other games during regular season he could've 'lost')?
|
|
|
Post by davecisar on Jan 6, 2009 8:32:23 GMT -6
The OSU O-Line was dominanting the LOS early on, Wells was doing just fine running the ball in the first half.
|
|
|
Post by knighter on Jan 6, 2009 8:35:24 GMT -6
Just be happy tOSU did not have to play Iowa. From what I saw at the end of the season Iowa beats Ohio State...better defense and a better running game.
To me the issue is PLAYER DEVELOPMENT. Some staffs "can do it" and some staffs can't. Look at the Iowa roster. How many 4 and 5 star recruits do they have? Mitch King was a HS RB, Matt Kroul was a HS RB, Brandon Meyer was a HS undersized TE, Pat Angerer was a very good HS LB (even though he was undersized).
Hang with me for a minute as it proves points both ways. Chizik went to ISU with a pedigree from Auburn and Texas. He seemed to think that he would be able to attract the 4 and 5 star recruits, which is tough in the midwest for many reasons (tOSU not included). What he found was he might actually have to work for his money, he might actually have to coach the players he got up, and when he figured it out he bailed for Auburn (can't blame him as it is a pay raise and much less work as he won't have to "coach" as much). Mac and his staff at ISU could develop those 2 and 3 star recruits and make them solid on both sides of the ball. Ferentz and his staff at Iowa develop talent. Joe Pa at Penn State does the same, Tressel to some extent develops quality 2 and 3 star "recruits" in solid working parts of his team at OSU. Northwestern has been doing a nice job recently of the same (gave Mizzou everything they could handle in what experts said would be an easy win for the Tigers). Zook can recruit at Illinois, but it ain't like FLorida my friend, he has to develop players as well (and he can't do it).
Recruiting is important no doubt, but if you can land the blue chips ultimately you have to be able to coach up what you have. 1 bowl game is not a complete picture of your total work for a season. Isn't Iowa a mere 12 points from being in contention for a National Title? (without a 5 star recruit in the starting lineup)
Developing players is the deciding factor in my book....guys you gotta be able to coach em up plain and simple.
|
|
|
Post by brophy on Jan 6, 2009 8:47:01 GMT -6
To me the issue is PLAYER DEVELOPMENT. Some staffs "can do it" and some staffs can't. Developing players is the deciding factor in my book....guys you gotta be able to coach em up plain and simple. Give Michigan a few more years.....they may be able to do more with less as well.
|
|
|
Post by knighter on Jan 6, 2009 9:00:12 GMT -6
I agree Brophy, and Rich Rod will be able to get some of the 4 and 5 star's who want to play in his offense.
Bow down to Doyle, he is THE man. Even taking some of the Iowa wrestlers under his wing so they can be strong, agile, powerful, and yet maintain weight for said weight class....I think the man is a genius.
|
|