|
Post by davecisar on Dec 9, 2008 7:05:12 GMT -6
I don't know how many have won natioanl titles but I do know a spread team will win the national title this year (Florida or OK) And if I am not mistaken Utah, Texas, TTech, Cincinnati, Penn St, are all running spread type offenses and they make up the bulk of the BCS. The question was in regards to Run and Shoot System teams. Florida and Oklahoma are not Run and Shoot teams by any stretch.
|
|
|
Post by captmccrae on Dec 9, 2008 9:38:44 GMT -6
It's already hapening - what is the zone read but option football? Add a pitch & it's - whoa - Triple option - not unlike the veer.
"Wildcat" - go back 50 years to the Single wing. It all comes in cycles...
|
|
|
Post by dacoordinator on Dec 9, 2008 12:00:09 GMT -6
I agree with old Osbourne for the most part.... but i think that everything repeats itself...once the spread is figured out week in and week out people will look for newer better answers to score points.. and those ideas may not be completely new...they will stem from older concepts in football but with slightly twicked ideas...Nick saban said it best in an interview he did a while back.. he said "that somewhere down the road when everybody that grew up in the spread age is in his shoes coaching, and everyone knows how to stop or to atleast slow it down. someone going to go back and run the wing T and noone is going to know how to stop that."
Everything in life runs in a circle. football included
|
|
|
Post by spreadattack on Dec 9, 2008 12:45:45 GMT -6
I agree with that. If there's been any "paradigm shift," I think it is that it will be tougher for teams to win consistently in the future if they can't both run and throw at least a bit. Johnson's team isn't throwing much, and maybe they will be the exception, but I look at the Wildcat, the spread, etc and say that the revolution wasn't spreading guys out but finding ways to use all your players, particularly your QB, to take away the advantage the D has for the extra ball carrier.
The whole running QB can get hyperbolic, but as Homer Smith says, eventually, one day, you're going to see a guy who can run like Bo Jackson and throw like Joe Montana. And the pressure that puts on the defense is tremendous.
But I don't think that means you have to be spread. You could be an option team (or option from spread, whatever), but the point is to take away the D's advantage.
The single-wing insight is that you gain the extra blocker, and with jet-faking etc you still get misdirection. It's downhill running, it's numhbers, and it's leverage.
So anyway, I think Osborne is right that what is different will be successful, and one reason old works well is because coaches understand it. (PJ gets the advantage of running something his opponents are unfamiliar with but he is incredibly familiar with. Compare that even with the early spread teams who had to kind of make it up as they went.) But there have been some lasting differences imposed on the game.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Dec 9, 2008 15:51:55 GMT -6
but as Homer Smith says, eventually, one day, you're going to see a guy who can run like Bo Jackson and throw like Joe Montana. And the pressure that puts on the defense is tremendous. The day has already come. That guy plays for Florida! ;D
|
|
|
Post by hemlock on Dec 9, 2008 22:02:28 GMT -6
The point that I think some posters forget, but one that all spread guys will acknowledge, is that in the modern game the Run-N-Shoot is wellspring that gave birth to the spread in all its various shades that we know today. Also, OU won a National Championship with the AirRaid one year after Leach left. They threw the ball as much if not more than Jenkins did during the heyday of the Run-N-Shoot.
Another point that I would like to address that I believe davecisar made concerns the perceived intracasies of the option versus the simplicity of the AirRaid. The size of Leach's playchart means nothing. In fact thats the beauty of the thing. Also, when you think of it, what Johnson does is EXTREMELY simple and straightforward. Everybody knows what he is going to do. Do you think that Bill Young and Randy Shannon at Miami do not know what Tech is going to do? Of course not, they knew exactly what was coming, but could do nothing to stop it. The same thing can be said for Osborne's I option. I coached against it for four years. From a schematic/gameplan it was not all that and a bag of chips. We knew their tendencies, their formationing, etc, but they just executed flawlessly. It was a simple system built around a few well integrated concepts - just like Johnson's spread option, and Leach's AirRaid.
Also, the AirRaid is an inverted cousin of the option. Its Mesh is the option's inside veer.
My one fear for Johnson is that he may ceiling with the offense. By this I mean that he is still playing with Gailey's kids and has yet had to go out and fill out a roster by convincing kids at that level that they can learn the skills they need to play in the NFL by playing in his system. He will have a very difficult time in the long run getting receivers and quarterbacks that are coveted by other teams. Other programs will use the option against him in recruting and eventually some stupid alum will wonder why we are losing such and such to Georgia?
Does that mean that the offense will be stopped? Not necessarily, but its something we should be aware of
|
|
|
Post by khalfie on Dec 9, 2008 22:22:03 GMT -6
My one fear for Johnson is that he may ceiling with the offense. By this I mean that he is still playing with Gailey's kids and has yet had to go out and fill out a roster by convincing kids at that level that they can learn the skills they need to play in the NFL by playing in his system. He will have a very difficult time in the long run getting receivers and quarterbacks that are coveted by other teams. Other programs will use the option against him in recruting and eventually some stupid alum will wonder why we are losing such and such to Georgia? Huh? I've heard this before... it can't be true... can it? There are a million hs that run option... a million more FB's that are finding their position dying... What about the million more QB's that get labled "athletes", because they aren't pure pocket passers? Those kids don't want to play option football? Linemen don't want to block option? huh? I can't buy it... I'll believe it, if you say its so... but if i'm a RB, FB, ATH, or linemen... i want to play for an option team. Now WR's... yeah... i can see that becoming an issue... but again... some of those ATH i recruit to be a HB or WB, won't work out... they become my WR's. i think working with Gailey's guys has slowed him down. Once he gets that beast, that's used to hitting the hole, or the Athlete used to reading the 3 tech, or the WB that's mastered the Arc release... and those TE's... i can't wait to see G-tech in year 3... The only thing that could have made that a better sight is if G-T had a Big N on their helmet and were playing against those Spread Teams in the Twelve.
|
|
|
Post by coachdubyah on Dec 9, 2008 22:31:47 GMT -6
My one fear for Johnson is that he may ceiling with the offense. By this I mean that he is still playing with Gailey's kids and has yet had to go out and fill out a roster by convincing kids at that level that they can learn the skills they need to play in the NFL by playing in his system. He will have a very difficult time in the long run getting receivers and quarterbacks that are coveted by other teams. Other programs will use the option against him in recruting and eventually some stupid alum will wonder why we are losing such and such to Georgia? Huh? I've heard this before... it can't be true... can it? There are a million hs that run option... a million more FB's that are finding their position dying... What about the million more QB's that get labled "athletes", because they aren't pure pocket passers? Those kids don't want to play option football? Linemen don't want to block option? huh? I can't buy it... I'll believe it, if you say its so... but if i'm a RB, FB, ATH, or linemen... i want to play for an option team. Now WR's... yeah... i can see that becoming an issue... but again... some of those ATH i recruit to be a HB or WB, won't work out... they become my WR's. i think working with Gailey's guys has slowed him down. Once he gets that beast, that's used to hitting the hole, or the Athlete used to reading the 3 tech, or the WB that's mastered the Arc release... and those TE's... i can't wait to see G-tech in year 3... The only thing that could have made that a better sight is if G-T had a Big N on their helmet and were playing against those Spread Teams in the Twelve. Coach, Totally agree. How many "Athletes" come out every year? These kids play QB in high school and then the "big dogs" look at them and say "well, we are set at qb, but you can come in and play as a receiver/return specialist". Now these kids have a place to go other than the service academies. Also with guys like Jeff Monken (Georgia Tech SB coach) out there looking to break into the Head Coaching scene the flexbone / spread option could make a come back.
|
|
|
Post by CoachMikeJudy on Dec 10, 2008 11:22:51 GMT -6
I don't think any high school kid would object to playing QB in Big Paul's offense...
You touch the ball every snap, with a good chance that you will keep it and run, and you don't have to be a great passer, but when they catch the ball it is likely a TD...
Sounds good to me?
IMHO I think GT's production of NFL caliber offensive players will decrease, just like UMich's NFL offensive player connection will be severed. Big Blue turns out stud Olinemen and WR year after year, not to mention a string of QB's that range from serviceable to MVP (Brady), but that will all stop due to the system being run there. BIG name recruits won't go to these schools because they're worried about their future and seeing $$$$ in their eyes. GT will suffer from this as well.
With that said I don't think that Rich Rod or PJ need to adjust what they do...games will be won, conferences will be shaken up (ACC specifically), and that new brand of football will become extremely popular at all levels of football, except at the top. NFL needs to be refreshed with new looks, a la Dolphins running some single wing stuff this year...
|
|
|
Post by gambler00 on Dec 10, 2008 11:46:39 GMT -6
I am a young coach who is an assistant at a good school. This year we ran a spread scheme while running the ball alot. Next year we are going to a more spread option look. I think the key is to get in an offense where you can do all the things your kids can do. I am still struggling with what direction to begin learning. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
|
|
|
Post by hemlock on Dec 10, 2008 14:54:20 GMT -6
That's all that I was saying. GT will win, but a lot of the kids that are in and of themselves difference makers, ones that are already thinking about the NFL will not want to go there. Frankly, you can't blame them, because when you play in the option you learn a different skill set from that employed throughout the NFL. While QB may get all the attention, this in reality most glaring at the OLINE position, because the skills that are taught for option football are fundamentally different from those in the NFL. Again, does that mean that the offense won't win - absolutely not.
The point about Michigan is also correct; however, this will only really impact the types of QBs that will come out of Ann Arbor. The other skill positions as well as the line will continue to learn skills that are transferable to the NFL.
|
|
|
Post by morris on Dec 10, 2008 19:29:21 GMT -6
Not sure I agree with the oline statement. I agree they will not be doing pass pro but most options teams use a form of zone blocking. GT is a bit of an extreme due to the 4 pt sprinter stance they use but Osbborne's oline did not have an issue getting looked at.
|
|
hawke
Sophomore Member
Posts: 209
|
Post by hawke on Dec 10, 2008 19:58:00 GMT -6
Put it in a barrel, when it's filled turn it over and start again. Football isn't much different than other things. Tweak the wide tackle 6 and you have the 43, tweak the 53 and you have the 3/5, tweak the 50 and we have the 34, tweak the single wing and we have the spread. Regardless it still comes down to blocking and tackling and if I get my guys to do what I want them to do better than the other guy gets his guys to do what he wants them to do, I'll win more than lose.
Hawke
|
|
|
Post by dacoordinator on Dec 11, 2008 11:06:40 GMT -6
I tend to agree with the ones that said it will be hard for PJ to get guys to come in there...I dont see him having a problem getting guys in there completely but the big name guys he will definitely have a problem getting. because it is hard to make it out of that system. Lets think about it.. John Dwyer probably in the top 10-15 running backs this year according to yardage and you dont really hear much about him as you do knowshown Morano and Anton smith. Idk why.. but its true.
|
|
|
Post by coachdawhip on Dec 13, 2008 22:52:48 GMT -6
My one fear for Johnson is that he may ceiling with the offense. By this I mean that he is still playing with Gailey's kids and has yet had to go out and fill out a roster by convincing kids at that level that they can learn the skills they need to play in the NFL by playing in his system. He will have a very difficult time in the long run getting receivers and quarterbacks that are coveted by other teams. Other programs will use the option against him in recruting and eventually some stupid alum will wonder why we are losing such and such to Georgia? Huh? I've heard this before... it can't be true... can it? There are a million hs that run option... a million more FB's that are finding their position dying... What about the million more QB's that get labled "athletes", because they aren't pure pocket passers? Those kids don't want to play option football? Linemen don't want to block option? huh? I can't buy it... I'll believe it, if you say its so... but if i'm a RB, FB, ATH, or linemen... i want to play for an option team. Now WR's... yeah... i can see that becoming an issue... but again... some of those ATH i recruit to be a HB or WB, won't work out... they become my WR's. i think working with Gailey's guys has slowed him down. Once he gets that beast, that's used to hitting the hole, or the Athlete used to reading the 3 tech, or the WB that's mastered the Arc release... and those TE's... i can't wait to see G-tech in year 3... The only thing that could have made that a better sight is if G-T had a Big N on their helmet and were playing against those Spread Teams in the Twelve. Coach I disagree, because Dwyer and Nesbitt are 2 of the best ATH's to ever come out of the state of GA. He will be hard pressed to find better ATH's than them. Better Lineman yes, Better Skilled players, the same.
|
|
|
Post by khalfie on Dec 13, 2008 23:38:38 GMT -6
Thought about that when I typed it...
And I guess my point is... as athletic as Dwyer and Nesbitt are...
They weren't system QB's and FB's... they've made the adjustment outstandingly... can't argue with their success...
But when I watch GT's option game... Nesbitt, albeit in the beginning, looked hesitant, not trusting of his reads... which was to be expected, while dwyer always seems to be looking for the big run, ala a running back, more than the smashmouth 3.5 up the gut.
Again, you are right about their talent, and hence their ability to play in any scheme, but I do believe, with more one dimensional players... the power dive fb... the option QB from high school... that's when the option really comes to life... it was created for such limited players, allowing each to do the one thing they did well...
IMHO.
|
|
|
Post by spreadattack on Dec 14, 2008 11:31:00 GMT -6
Thought about that when I typed it... And I guess my point is... as athletic as Dwyer and Nesbitt are... They weren't system QB's and FB's... they've made the adjustment outstandingly... can't argue with their success... But when I watch GT's option game... Nesbitt, albeit in the beginning, looked hesitant, not trusting of his reads... which was to be expected, while dwyer always seems to be looking for the big run, ala a running back, more than the smashmouth 3.5 up the gut. Again, you are right about their talent, and hence their ability to play in any scheme, but I do believe, with more one dimensional players... the power dive fb... the option QB from high school... that's when the option really comes to life... it was created for such limited players, allowing each to do the one thing they did well... IMHO. I agree but as we have seen these notions go in opposite directions. We saw the same thing with the spread. The teams themselves get better at running it and you now get kids who ran it in high school as well as college, but defenses also get more used to it. I think GT will actually have to develop its passing game a bit more as time goes on. Maybe I'm based and wrong about that, but I can't imagine that some of these teams will seem so unprepared as time goes on, but I could be wrong. One advantage I think PJ has is that you won't see the flexbone sweep the entire country the way the spread did. The spread had certain aesthetic appeals -- spin, even, with the hype of being big play and up tempo and wide open -- that made it "spread" so rapidly. One thing I'd like to see PJ do (and flexbone gurus can school me on this) is put in some full-time no-huddle/up-tempo packages like what OU and some other programs do with their offenses.
|
|
|
Post by dubber on Dec 14, 2008 11:51:04 GMT -6
I love all systems, but in line with spreadattack, I LOVE tempoing the play.
I could learn to love any system, as long as I can go no huddle.
Really, I believe defenses have caught up with the spread, but the no huddle still has Defense pulling out their hair.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Dec 14, 2008 14:54:03 GMT -6
Huh? I've heard this before... it can't be true... can it? There are a million hs that run option... a million more FB's that are finding their position dying... What about the million more QB's that get labled "athletes", because they aren't pure pocket passers? Those kids don't want to play option football? Linemen don't want to block option? huh? I can't buy it... I'll believe it, if you say its so... but if i'm a RB, FB, ATH, or linemen... i want to play for an option team. But coach, what you are doing here is "projecting". Unless you are a kid who has been told your whole life how awesome you were, Unless you are a kid who has been being pampered by schmucks who write drivel for scouts.com or rivals.com for the last 3 years, a kid who has been indoctrinated with thoughts of his major college scholarship leading to the NFL career since he was 10 or 11...than what you "want" is pretty irrelevant to the reality of the current recruiting landscape. You are looking at things from a coaches eyes : you are expressing an opinion that those players you are describing would have an opportunity to have an enjoyable and potentially successful college experience (including football) because of a "fit" at GT. This is undoubtedly a fairly accurate assessment. The problem is, the kids don't view things like you do. The reality of the situation is these kids have been told by so many that they love and trust that they are going to the NFL. I actually coached a BACKUP OFFENSIVE LINEMAN as a SENIOR at the 1AA level who thought he was going to the league. The second issue you are missing is that GT is a regional recruiter. That nifty option wiz playing qb in say Tacoma Washington...probably isn't showing up in Atlanta. ALL THAT SAID..there is one variable that might really help Coach Johnson and his GT program that not many have mentioned. THE INTERNET. The coaching fraternity is so much more connected now than ever before, and as such. If Coach Johnson can find a way to tap into such networking (for example the flexbone association), I do think he can use that to help GT become a little more of a national recruiter than a regional recruiter. That doesn't seem to be the case though, looking at the current commitment list.
|
|
|
Post by khalfie on Dec 14, 2008 15:19:45 GMT -6
If Coach Johnson can find a way to tap into such networking (for example the flexbone association), I do think he can use that to help GT become a little more of a national recruiter than a regional recruiter. That doesn't seem to be the case though, looking at the current commitment list. Outstanding post and point... I wonder about the stipulations on coaches and message boards, at the very least, assistant coaches... I always thought, colleges could basically get what they wanted... so many players, so few opportunities... 119 d1 programs... 550 high schools playing football in Illinois alone. Sure the big dogs are going to go to the big schools... but there so many other dogs for the other schools... Maybe GT's guys aren't on Rivals or Scouts list... but his next FB, has to be a guy that knows what a flexbone option FB does....
|
|
|
Post by dubber on Dec 14, 2008 15:31:30 GMT -6
You know, West Virginia, Texas Tech, Missouri, etc. They all get quality D1 talent, but there is a huge gap between the kids they can recruit versus the kids Oklahoma, FLordia, Ohio State, etc. can recruit. Georgia Tech will be in the same boat. Not getting Tyrelle Pryor to play option QB, but getting kids like this: ......who want to play QB, but only has DB offers from big time D1 guys. Also, you will see some D1 talent like this find a haven:
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Dec 14, 2008 15:33:31 GMT -6
If Coach Johnson can find a way to tap into such networking (for example the flexbone association), I do think he can use that to help GT become a little more of a national recruiter than a regional recruiter. That doesn't seem to be the case though, looking at the current commitment list. Outstanding post and point... I wonder about the stipulations on coaches and message boards, at the very least, assistant coaches... I always thought, colleges could basically get what they wanted... so many players, so few opportunities... 119 d1 programs... 550 high schools playing football in Illinois alone. Sure the big dogs are going to go to the big schools... but there so many other dogs for the other schools... Maybe GT's guys aren't on Rivals or Scouts list... but his next FB, has to be a guy that knows what a flexbone option FB does.... No restrictions on Coach to Coach contact at all. So, perhaps Paul Johnson can develop a "system" pipeline to augment the geographic relationships GT has in the south east. As far as getting what they want...recruiting is such a labor intensive endeavor. Just because the #'s seem to be in the schools favor, that doesn't necessarily mean that the ability to marry all those situations together exists. All that said, I can almost guarantee you that without any aid of 20/20 hindsight, Paul Johnson and his staff would have chosen the OU Adrian Peterson than the Georgia Southern AP if they were forced to. THAT is at the crux of the recruiting issue.
|
|
|
Post by coachcb on Dec 14, 2008 15:58:57 GMT -6
I think often times that we focus so much on WHO the schools are getting and underestimate WHAT they are doing with them.
A prime example is Charlie Weiss and his situation. He has had a couple fantastic recruiting classes the past two years, has played a lot of teams with less talent, and come up short.
Now, we will see how his talent comes along, but watching them this year, it's tough to say that their talent has been maximized.
|
|
|
Post by coachd5085 on Dec 14, 2008 16:13:26 GMT -6
I think often times that we focus so much on WHO the schools are getting and underestimate WHAT they are doing with them. A prime example is Charlie Weiss and his situation. He has had a couple fantastic recruiting classes the past two years, has played a lot of teams with less talent, and come up short. Just to be fair to Weiss, you must realize that the nature of "recruiting classes" and their evaluation is suspect at best, and downright bogus at worst. Players who are rated by these "experts", often find their ratings moving up and down based on who is recruiting them. The one star kids (whatever that means) that get phone calls from ND become three star kids once they tell the rivals guy they are talking to ND. And of course, there is my favorite "recruiting service" story of all time.. IVAN RENKO Ivan was a fictitious recruit that bobby knight mentioned , only to have one of if not more of the "recruiting reporters" compose articles discussing the kid and giving "eye witness" accounts of the fictitious player.
|
|
|
Post by 19delta on Dec 14, 2008 17:33:52 GMT -6
And of course, there is my favorite "recruiting service" story of all time.. IVAN RENKO Ivan was a fictitious recruit that bobby knight mentioned , only to have one of if not more of the "recruiting reporters" compose articles discussing the kid and giving "eye witness" accounts of the fictitious player. Don't forget this guy, Coach!
|
|