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Post by hemlock on Sept 29, 2008 6:02:45 GMT -6
Has anybody been keeping up with Auburn this year. I'm absolutely flabbergasted at how Franklin is being treated on the Plains. What did they think was going to happen? It will take at least a year for them to get the kinks worked out in that offense due to the personnel issues they have on offense.
Also, Tuberville hired Franklin to run HIS system. It already seems as if he is caving in and forcing him to do stuff that seems as if it comes from the Al Borges' era. Another point is that Todd is clearly more ready to play than Burns. Todd understands the offense, its evident when he is in the game. Burns can make great plays once in a while, but he can execute the routine plays that make that offense really go.
Thoughts?
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Post by 1ispread on Sept 29, 2008 6:12:59 GMT -6
I agree 100% with you. It seems they are abandoning the style they hired him to coach (without much more sucess) & yes Todd is clearly the better QB running Franklin's offense. Did Todd transfer from TX Tech?
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Post by hemlock on Sept 29, 2008 6:34:54 GMT -6
Yes, Todd first signed with TTech and then transferred to a JC in Kansas once he realized that he would never beat out Graham Harrell.
The other thing is that Auburn fans and Tubs need to realize that this is the SEC. Urban Meyer's version of the spread has never been quite as prolific as it was in the Mountain West. That's natural. It's still a good offense, but its simply not as flashy.
From what I understand their is a tension on the Auburn staff. Tuberville hired him after he was schooled for a half by Hal Mumme and NMSU last year. He had an epiphany of sorts. However, he does not seem to understand that Franklin wants to throw the rock. Ideally he would like the offense to be closer to what Leach and Mumme do than what Meyer does. We should remember that this is the AirRaid just with a very advanced no-huddle element.
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Post by spreadattack on Sept 29, 2008 8:57:30 GMT -6
I've caught a bit of the Auburn stuff too, though not enough to make a great judgment, and I agree it's too early to tell really.
I agree that you need a game manager at QB. It's also tough to judge because, like you said, the staff seems tense and there is pressure on the players. They don't have a real gunslinger back there (nor experienced receivers), and it's hard to judge Franklin in a vacuum when he's part of the team.
That said, Auburn to me appears to be running the Airraid for High School. Yes, I see some airraid concepts, but it's not the probing, analytical style, but instead more of a bludgeon. The games I've seen -- which is not many -- they pretty much go no back or trips tight and in trips tight they are running or maybe throwing a Ralph/Lonnie screen, and from no-back Franklin kind of has his own plays. (He likes the double smash, or the speed out/seam, and a few others.) Might have just been the games I've seen (and with the TV view) but I didn't see enough stick/mesh/shallow/etc.
But like I said, I don't see the probing, analytical style of a Leach. That said, in the SEC you're going to see lots of man, and if they can cover (see Alabama), then there's not a lot of probing you need to do. It's all quite early, but I will say I've been a bit disappointed in their progress myself. I don't necessarily blame Franklin.
I think the bigger issue is just that you're not going to sneak up on people by being a "spread" team. It just doesn't happen anymore. People have seen it, kids have played against it for years, and there's not going to be a scheme advantage. So the learning curve is steep since it involves learning the system and getting the players, like anything else. (Say, Saban's defense at 'Bama had a big learning curve.) So the spread is in a tough bind, because it gets sold as a quick fix, but it's not. It's just another offense you can run, and it needs to be well coached and you need players. There's at least fifty major college teams running some a good deal of spread, if not more. How different is it then to be spread?
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Post by dubber on Sept 29, 2008 11:03:17 GMT -6
From the clips I have seen, the offense seems hodge podge.
Pure Air Raid is simple.......this is doing too much, imo.
Why that is.........only the Auburn staff knows.
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Post by morris on Sept 29, 2008 13:22:32 GMT -6
It does not matter that this is the SEC. Mumme and Leach did just fine in the SEC with the Air Raid system with less talent then what Auburn has. There is a ton of pressure right now going on there. I am not sure what is going on as far as his system. Their honeslty is not a difference between a HS version and a SEC version. It is the same plays.
Even with a sub par QB KY use to be able to throw for 300yds or soagainst SEC teams. I am not sure what is going on when you see 90yds passing. Todd also ran this offense in HS. E-Town was one of Franklin's first clients.
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Post by hemlock on Sept 29, 2008 14:47:56 GMT -6
Although I agree with some of what Morris says, I think that spreadattack has a point. They seem as if they are a stage or two behind where they should be with the offense. I do not doubt Tony Franklin. Remember, he ran the offense in the SEC very effectively at UK. What I tend to think, and Morris alluded to this, is that something is not right down there in terms of how much Tuberville really has bought into the system. To do it right requires an absolute commitment and that means that you may take some lumps. Remember, when Mumme arrived at UK it was still a fairly novel concept. Not any more. People know the package and hence you have to be that much better with your execution.
For Auburn this is something really "new." Please tell me if I'm wrong, but what I sense is that the pressure there is so great that Tuberville cannot afford to have an average season in which you learn the nuances of the offense.
Spreadattack's point about them being "tentative" I think is correct. I've watched three games closely and they essentially are running three base plays - Shallow, Smash, and Verts. It suggests to me that they are just not very confident with what they are doing; also, and I'm just reading the tea leaves, but I suspect that there is division on the staff as to who should be the QB. It's clear that Franklin would much rather have Todd as the QB. He knows what he can do. However, Burns appears to be Tuberville's choice, probably for recruiting purposes. Burns, while he made a play the other day, does not seem to understand the nuances of the system sufficiently in order make the offense work for him.
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Post by airman on Sept 29, 2008 16:07:02 GMT -6
SEC DC's pride themselves on being able to play man free or just plain man defense. in this case you have to have guys who can beat man coverage.
That said tony franklin should not have taken the job. I felt anything less then intial success and victory would lead to the boo birds.
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Post by morris on Sept 29, 2008 19:00:07 GMT -6
I think Franklin was the OC 1 year. Mumme called a good deal of the offense. When he got to UK he said they would be the BYU or the SEC. Auburn is taking a ton of heat from the media. Look at the RBs that have come from there and you can understand why it is tough. You add that to the fact they saw the numbers from Troy and UK and wonder where the production is.
I just do not understand why they would be behind. He was there in the spring. If you look at what Mumme did his first year they were running the crap out of mesh early on. They went undercenter and ran I. I completely agree with spreadattack in that Mesh, Stick, Cross, Sail and etc just do not seem to be there. I wonder if Franklin has fallen prey to what he complained about with Mumme.
I guess to a degree I understand the High School version mentioned. We have a ton of clients/airraid teams in the state. Franklin was even the OC for a few state title games with him calling plays. The offense looks the same as those games. No airraid team has won a state title here.
As far as the man 2 man issue. UK could beat man to man with lesser players. Auburn should be able to beat man. One of the big difference of what UK did and what Auburn does in the RBs. UK was a 2 back set a large portion of the time. Leach wanted more 4 wide which you see at Tech but those 2 RBs helped.
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Post by wingtol on Sept 29, 2008 20:34:57 GMT -6
Not that I really have a lot of exp with any type of spread system, and maybe I am wrong, but I am sure Mumme at KU had the advantage that when he was running the system it was more of a "gimick" O than it is now as in you only saw it once a year and it was all crazy and how do we stop this and my lord what are we gonna do against this. As someone said above kids have been playing against spread teams for years now that it has become more and more popular through the college level down to the HS level. Maybe that is why KU was more successful with it in the SEC. Just a thought
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 29, 2008 20:45:44 GMT -6
I am a little more interested in how this lack of immediate success at AU affects the "system" now (as opposed to the TF system, before he sold..lol).
I know if I am the current owners/operators of "the system", I would CRINGE anytime someone says "well, it is the personnel issues, or give them time to recruit players for the system...."since u can't do those things at the H.S level.
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Post by joelee on Sept 30, 2008 6:47:58 GMT -6
I think Tubbervile and possibly other members of the staff are what is really holding back the offense. They are not attacking defenses like he did at Troy, nor are they attacking defenses like they did in the bowl game. Take away some of those 2 yard zone runs to the T.E side and split him out to call mesh,stick,cross a little more.
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Post by morris on Sept 30, 2008 6:48:55 GMT -6
The SEC was dealing with Spurrier and Manning at the time so they were use to teams jacking the ball around. It was not a gimmick to those schools. UK was good with it for the same reason TT is good with it now. They kept it very simple and have a very good practice plan with it. It is like Spreadattack said that it is a probing type offense. If a corner dropped the ball came out now to the back. It was 13 plays with a few tags and that was it.
When it first got to the SEC it was a 2 RB, 1 TE, 2 WR offense for the most part. They went 3 wide 1 RB when running shallow (though they did run it out of 2 RBs some) but that was it. It was not huge line splits and 4 wide all the time. They were not even no huddle. I think sometimes people get too smart for their own good. That seams like part of the issue.
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Post by John Knight on Sept 30, 2008 10:37:30 GMT -6
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Post by raiderpirates on Sept 30, 2008 18:16:41 GMT -6
Run effectiveness has to weigh in at that school.
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soopd
Freshmen Member
Posts: 28
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Post by soopd on Oct 1, 2008 7:25:24 GMT -6
I live in Alabama and I attended the game between AU and UT. I also am a OC for a high school football team that runs the system. From what I have seen this year from Au, this is not the system. It seems to me that Franklin is getting told what to run on offense. Tubs wants to run the ball to set up the pass and Franklin likes to set up the run with the pass. I never saw any hurry up offense from AU at this weeks game. I saw the freeze quite a bit, but they never got into a hurry up mode.
Franklin has said that to be sucessful in this offense you must be good at the screens, and get a lot of snaps (maybe like 80) on offense. I dont think I have seen but maybe 4 screens all year and I don't think they are close to getting 80 snaps.
At the high school level we have been getting 70 snaps. That is with us slowing down in the 4th so we dont run up the score.
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Post by morris on Oct 1, 2008 7:34:59 GMT -6
Well if they are not going to let Franklin run what he was brought in to run there is going to be issues. In fact it is going to be a short time there and it is going to end ugly. They knew this when they brought him in. If they are not careful both Tubs and Franklin will be at different schools. It seems like there is a good deal of heat going on right now.
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Post by spreadattack on Oct 1, 2008 10:09:03 GMT -6
Looks like Tuberville has said they've junked Tony Franklin's offense and will go back to the drawing board.
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Post by silkyice on Oct 1, 2008 11:37:00 GMT -6
I am really shocked at how bad the offense is.
I don't see many screens, mesh, or shallow. I don't see any two backs. If your QB can't run, then you just about have to go to two backs (or throw a ton).
Ben Tate doen't look like a spread running back, but they also aren't running inside zone. How many cutbacks have you seen by the RB's? They run stretch a lot, but when they run zone the running back is keying the playside end. There is no bang it in there or cut it back and certainly no effective pull by the QB.
To sum it up: no run game, no vertical game, no screens to stretch horizontally, no crossing routes (mesh & shallow), and no fast pace. That pretty much sounds like the worst spread offense ever!!!!!
And to top it off, they don't even get in the I and run iso, toss, and boot. How hard could that be to do at Auburn as a goalline, short yardage, backed up, or change up offense? They have only been doing that since Bo Jackson.
I have no idea what is going on. Don't know if AU has the athletes for the spread, don't know if Tubs is handcuffing Franklin, or if Franklin is in over his head. How can they look pretty good with 9 practices before the bowl game against Clemson and then look like this after already installing it, spring practice, summer, and summer camp, and 5 games? Amazing.
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Post by morris on Oct 1, 2008 12:51:34 GMT -6
Whatever he is running is not what he was hired to run. Silkyice you are exactly correct they shoud be able to line up and run iso, toss and boot. There is some issue on the inside because they are not running an Air Raid system.
I do not even understand when people wonder if they have the athletes for it. You can run it just fine from I type personal. There has to be stuff going on behind the scenes which is not pretty and/or Franklin is going crazy. I do not believe he will be there much longer past this year if they do not let him do what he was hired to do.
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Post by spreadattack on Oct 1, 2008 13:17:59 GMT -6
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Post by midlineqb on Oct 1, 2008 17:58:48 GMT -6
What I heard on the broadcast of the AU UT game was that they lacked the receivers to run this offense and this was why they reverting back to the running game of the past years.
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Post by morris on Oct 1, 2008 18:36:08 GMT -6
I call BS on that one. There is no way they can convince me they do not have the rec to run it. They have the personal to go 2 RB, 1TE and 2/3WRs.
This looks more to me like Tubs did not want Franklin there in the first place and got stuck with him. This whole thing is going to end badly with Franklin writing another book this time about Auburn and his days in the SEC will be done.
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20x
Junior Member
Posts: 380
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Post by 20x on Oct 1, 2008 22:22:24 GMT -6
Its amazing to me that a coach of Tubberville's level would be pulling this crap. You bring in the 'guru' of the airraid and demand him to run something else. How arrogant is Tubberville? Franklin won a bowl game with 9 days of prep with his offense. He has proven it will work. Turn it loose, or let Franklin go. From the outside it looks the the AD or some boosters didn't like Franklin having success at in state Troy, so they brought him on for name recognition. Now its going to get real ugly.
Franklin wasn't hired to run 'Auburn's offense'.
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Post by joelee on Oct 2, 2008 5:51:06 GMT -6
I have 2 pieces of evidence to present to the prosecution.
Exhibit A: Auburn had the players to run it in the bowl. Exhibit B: Auburn has better players than Troy.
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Post by 1ispread on Oct 2, 2008 6:16:58 GMT -6
I think Hemlock has it right. The problem is the head coach hasnt bought into the AIR RAID mindset all the way. You see that sometimes in college ball a HC hires an OC with a different philsophy than his & then he cant commit a 100% to it, then all of a sudden you have power I run the ball, throw deep off play action crashing into a spread pass mindset & the result is never productive. Malzahn at Arkansas vs Malzahn at Tulsa. There is more ways to skin a cat than one but you cant use them all on the same cat.
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Post by morris on Oct 2, 2008 6:51:15 GMT -6
The more we have talked about this the more I have wondered about the hiring process. Does the AD have the final say on who is hired and fired? Do you just normally not see the AD and HC having a difference of vision so there is not a fight as to how the HC wants things?
It honestly looks like Tubberville got stuck with Franklin. With Franklin at Troy and the teams in the state running the offense I think people started to think how great it would be with Auburn talent. I am sure people also noticed the amount fo money Troy was making off of its camps and how powerful of a recruiting tool that could be. I remember around the bowl game Tubberville stated they were not going to go full go into the offense at that time.
There is a complete divide it seems on who the QB should be and the overall offense. I would hate to be a player on that team right now. Can you imagine how much things change from practice to practice and week to week. I think the stupid thing about is they can to a degree do both. They can go undercenter and run some I and PA and they can go gun and run the Air Raid passing game. You just can not do both and do everything they did at Troy.
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Post by hemlock on Oct 2, 2008 14:01:57 GMT -6
Interesting observations. Since I'm not in the South I was aware that of the belief that Tubs was perhaps "pressured" into hiring Franklin. The way it was presented, and I obviously was stupid for believing it, was that Tubs made this move on his own, believing that in order to get over the hump that he had to take his offense in a different direction.
What I tend to wonder about though is what happened during the interview process. I have a hard time believing that Franklin did not spell out to Tubs in very discrete language what hiring him entailed; that to succeed with this offense that you needed to make a 100% commitment, that it was a way of life, a system of belief, and that you may stumble for a year before the system really begins to gell and become consistently productive.
Another thing that I find odd, especially since I think that Tubs is a very smart guy, is why he chose Franklin's version of the spread and not something more akin to what Meyer is doing at Florida or RichRod at Michigan. Very strange.
Frankly speaking, no pun intended, if I were Franklin I would walk away from it right now. I would pretty much tell Tubs you do this my way or I leave.
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Post by coachhortman on Oct 2, 2008 16:26:51 GMT -6
It takes 100 percent commitment to run the spread offense because you have to practice it daily plus run it in your offense. We have been doing this for years. I agree with the other posters, let Franklin run the offense or get yourself another OC. Let Franklin go elsewhere where the spread is appreciated.
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Post by deaux68 on Oct 2, 2008 20:22:14 GMT -6
Tommy is a great coach. He has done great things at Auburn. More than anything he is great with the media. Almost to the point of brainwash.
Had this been going on at Alabama he would've been outed already. For some reason no one on the Auburn beat will ask the hard questions.
It's not like this is something new for Tommy. I think he's had 11 different coordinators since 1998. There have been divides between he and his coordinators. Twice he fired guys/made changes in order to save his job. One of these resulting in "Jet-Gate" in which he won a ton of respect from the talking heads and polarizing the Auburn fan base. It also didn't hurt that he won the next 13 games and got screwed over by the BCS.
Tony Franklin is getting screwed. He was hired to do a job, but he isn't getting the full backing from the head coach or his assistants who are the same guys that have been with Tommy since Ole Miss. He isn't getting the opportunity to coordinate the offense the way he wants.
For a guy that was basically blacklisted for years anyway this may end up being career suicide. I don't think he'll be back next year and from there I dunno where he goes.
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