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Post by jgordon1 on Sept 23, 2008 19:38:58 GMT -6
I am just a lowly assistant. I was wondering why most HFC's defer when they win the coin toss. To me unless the conditions are poor or my defense is clearly superior, I want the ball NOW.
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Post by John Knight on Sept 23, 2008 20:17:22 GMT -6
Chance of scoring on opening drive is very low, chance of 3 and out is pretty high, then field position is set for much of first quarter unless someone scores. As an offensive coach I always want the ball first if I think we are going to be able to move the ball.
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Post by coachbw on Sept 23, 2008 23:38:34 GMT -6
We will sometimes take the ball at the beginning, but will usually defer. I like having the ability to score last in the 1st half and then getting the ball back to start the 2nd. It can help extend a lead, or cut into an opponents lead (at least in theory).
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Post by superpower on Sept 24, 2008 3:22:02 GMT -6
As a ball control offense, we always take the ball when we win the toss. I would say that in the past two seasons plus the first three games of this season, we have scored on about 66% of our opening drives.
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Post by piquaindian on Sept 24, 2008 8:55:27 GMT -6
This is my 3rd year as a head coach (youth) and I always want the ball. In youth football, if you can score first it usually wins you the game. I know that when we get scored on first, our kids are down.
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Post by justryn2 on Sept 24, 2008 11:55:34 GMT -6
I usually defer. As someone else said, its not that easy to score on the first possession; sometimes the players need a few hits to get into the game, sometimes the offense is "feeling out" the defense, etc. Usually, though not always, it means you get the last possession of the first half and the first possession of the second half. That's two chances to score without giving the opposition a chance. Having said that, if I know from scouting that my team is clearly superior to the opposition, I take the ball if I win the toss.
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Post by airman on Sept 24, 2008 16:49:34 GMT -6
I never defer when we win. I want to put our superior kickoff teams on the field and I want to put our jacked up defense right on the field.
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moball
Junior Member
Posts: 254
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Post by moball on Sept 24, 2008 17:29:27 GMT -6
We are a veer team so we don't worry about "feeling out a defense." Our defense on the other hand seems to always play on their heels the first drive. We always take the ball.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 24, 2008 18:33:18 GMT -6
I never defer when we win. I want to put our superior kickoff teams on the field and I want to put our jacked up defense right on the field. ?? So you give up a possession? I don't follow you here. If you DON'T defer, and use your choice to kick...now the offense can choose to receive in the 2nd half right?
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Post by kcbazooka on Sept 24, 2008 18:43:57 GMT -6
We don't always defer -- example - wet, muddy conditions - field and game ball may be at their best at the beginning of the game.
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Post by airman on Sept 24, 2008 18:51:24 GMT -6
I never defer when we win. I want to put our superior kickoff teams on the field and I want to put our jacked up defense right on the field. ?? So you give up a possession? I don't follow you here. If you DON'T defer, and use your choice to kick...now the offense can choose to receive in the 2nd half right? i choose to kick and put my defense on the field if we win the toss. if we lose the toss we often end up kicking anyway. most people want to put their offense on the field first. I take the opposite approach. see I am a platoon guy and we talk to the offense and defense totally different. we talk to them separately before the game. when I talk to the offense I talk in a calm voice and very intellectual. we keep them calm. offense you have to think first and then play with emotion. when I talk to the defense I tell them to go out and basically kill the opponent. get them all fired up and I do not want them sitting around as cheer leaders in the first possession. got this from former Delaware head coach tubby Raymond.
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Post by jgordon1 on Sept 24, 2008 19:05:29 GMT -6
got this from former Delaware head coach tubby Raymond.
would like to know other things you learned from Tubby
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 24, 2008 19:06:44 GMT -6
?? So you give up a possession? I don't follow you here. If you DON'T defer, and use your choice to kick...now the offense can choose to receive in the 2nd half right? i choose to kick and put my defense on the field if we win the toss. if we lose the toss we often end up kicking anyway. most people want to put their offense on the field first. I take the opposite approach. Yes, but what I am saying is that it is my understanding that at the beginning of the game, the winner of the toss gets his choice of RECEIVE-KICK-DEFEND A CERTAIN SIDE..or you can defer your choice to the second half. If you MAKE a choice, then the opponent gets the same 3 choices in he 2nd half. If you CHOOSE to KICK...your opponent gets the ball to start the 1st half. When the 2nd half comes, your opponent gets to make their choice, and they can CHOOSE to receive...and they will get the ball at the start of the 2nd half as well. Right? Or has this changed?
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Post by John Knight on Sept 24, 2008 19:08:43 GMT -6
So you kick off both halves by choice, airman ?
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Post by k on Sept 24, 2008 19:14:56 GMT -6
We always take the ball.
When it has been my choice I take it because it seems to be easy to catch the other team off guard on the first drive.
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Post by coachorr on Sept 24, 2008 22:21:56 GMT -6
Against the DW is the only time I don't defer.
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Post by airman on Sept 25, 2008 13:33:08 GMT -6
i choose to kick and put my defense on the field if we win the toss. if we lose the toss we often end up kicking anyway. most people want to put their offense on the field first. I take the opposite approach. Yes, but what I am saying is that it is my understanding that at the beginning of the game, the winner of the toss gets his choice of RECEIVE-KICK-DEFEND A CERTAIN SIDE..or you can defer your choice to the second half. If you MAKE a choice, then the opponent gets the same 3 choices in he 2nd half. If you CHOOSE to KICK...your opponent gets the ball to start the 1st half. When the 2nd half comes, your opponent gets to make their choice, and they can CHOOSE to receive...and they will get the ball at the start of the 2nd half as well. Right? Or has this changed? you are correct. we often get to kick off in the second half and put our defense on the field in the second half. as for possession argument. our averrage scoring drive is under 3 mins so we do not worry much about having the ball.
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Post by coachd5085 on Sept 25, 2008 21:50:44 GMT -6
Yes, but what I am saying is that it is my understanding that at the beginning of the game, the winner of the toss gets his choice of RECEIVE-KICK-DEFEND A CERTAIN SIDE..or you can defer your choice to the second half. If you MAKE a choice, then the opponent gets the same 3 choices in he 2nd half. If you CHOOSE to KICK...your opponent gets the ball to start the 1st half. When the 2nd half comes, your opponent gets to make their choice, and they can CHOOSE to receive...and they will get the ball at the start of the 2nd half as well. Right? Or has this changed? you are correct. we often get to kick off in the second half and put our defense on the field in the second half. as for possession argument. our averrage scoring drive is under 3 mins so we do not worry much about having the ball. But coach...talking about the time of the avg scoring drive is a discussion on time of possession. Kicking off both halves is the equivalent of a turnover each game.
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Post by casec11 on Sept 26, 2008 8:11:01 GMT -6
Airman, you lose a possesion each game that way.... why not always defer? if you defer the other team will choose the ball 99% of the time
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Post by spartan74 on Sept 26, 2008 9:09:29 GMT -6
I always want the ball. My college coach told me one that if you screw up on on offense it is second down, if you screw up on defense it is 6 points. so we want our offense out there to shake off the nerves.
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Post by rideanddecide on Sept 26, 2008 9:19:55 GMT -6
So what would change how you do things?
For example.. We used to be an I team. Now we run option. I want the ball now because we are going to score! it seems to take teams some time in the game to get comfortable with seeing the option.
Other coaches mentioned taking the ball vs. a double wing team, or weather playing a role.
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sbv
Sophomore Member
Posts: 171
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Post by sbv on Sept 26, 2008 9:22:00 GMT -6
Airman, I am with the other coaches on this. If you choose to kick, then you are GIVING the other team the ball both halves. It seems asinine to do this unless you can be positive that your defense will make them go 3 and out and then you get the ball in better field position. If this is the case, you should just score once, and then punt the ball on first down the rest of the game because of your faith in your defense.
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Post by casec11 on Sept 26, 2008 10:07:26 GMT -6
Airman, If the other team defers do you say we want to kick?
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Post by splitricky5 on Sept 26, 2008 10:14:32 GMT -6
I want the ball so I can start answering questions about how the other team is going to handle what I do. How will they adjust to this formation, how do they adjust to motion, what coverage will they be in to this set? I can answer at least three questions in the first three plays that may impact how I call the rest of the game. That, to me, is important.
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Post by phantom on Sept 26, 2008 11:03:57 GMT -6
I want the ball so I can start answering questions about how the other team is going to handle what I do. How will they adjust to this formation, how do they adjust to motion, what coverage will they be in to this set? I can answer at least three questions in the first three plays that may impact how I call the rest of the game. That, to me, is important. What's the difference in doing that the first series of the game or the second?
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Post by gacoach on Sept 26, 2008 12:32:03 GMT -6
It depends on how good my kicker and KO or KOR team is.
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Post by splitricky5 on Sept 26, 2008 12:37:28 GMT -6
I want the ball so I can start answering questions about how the other team is going to handle what I do. How will they adjust to this formation, how do they adjust to motion, what coverage will they be in to this set? I can answer at least three questions in the first three plays that may impact how I call the rest of the game. That, to me, is important. What's the difference in doing that the first series of the game or the second? Good point. It sounded good though, didn't it? I guess I'm just an offensive guy (pun intended) and I want answers to my questions first thing.
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Post by airman on Sept 26, 2008 14:01:04 GMT -6
There is a method to my madness. Most you coaches have or are old school mentality which there is nothing wrong with. you believe in controling the clock, you believe in controling the ball through running the ball. you believe in TOP.
I am a passing coach. If I never had to run the ball I would be the happiest guy in the world. when you have this mentality you approach things in a different light.
you old school guys when you are facing a passing team in your mind think we are soft, especially on defense. do not lie you know this is the truth.
I have always been blessed with good kickers. do not ask me why but I have been. many have been soccer kids who have crossed over.
So I kick off to you. now my kick off team is called Kamikaze which means devine wind. In english it is associated with suicide attacks on naval ships in world war 2. however to be a Kamikaze was a very special thing. It meant you would sacrifice yourself for the team aka Japan. what better way to instill a moral code for kickoff team. you have to be special to be on Kamikaze. you have to be willing to give of yourself for your team. so we kick off and rarely does another team start from greater then the 20yd line.
now we put our gambler 46 defense out on the field. now all week in your mind you have thought of how you are going to pound on this supposedly soft defense. so you have planned your first drive to morally defeat the defense by a long drive eating up the clock. you are going to beat up on this soft defense.
now your first drive you get stopped. you realize things are not going to be so easy and the defense is not soft.
now in the second half you come out thinking the same thing. you are going to put together a drive and score.
then there is the fact that we might on side kick to begin the game with or begin the second half with or after we have scored a touch down. but we have more then one style of onside kicks as well.
My madness come from well respected coaches like mouse davis. Mouse believes in an attacking agressive defense. he believes the job of the defnse is to create turnovers so the offense can score more points. Mouse knows his team is going to score points.
Otto Zeman at riverside brookfield Il will onside kick at any time.
Mike leach. TOP and number of posessions means nothing to him.
even tubby raymond had some odd thoughts which contributed.
see I have not followed the standard paradigm and that gets unsettling to players. your players and you coaches go by a certain paradigm and when that paradigm is blasted to kingdom come you are now uncomfortable. coaches do not like to think outside the box. they like to think with in a set of established guidelines. players crave stability just like coaches.
It is like Kurt Bryant's A 11 offense. It is a paradigm shift which people are not prepared for and when they are not prepared for it they do not like it.
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Post by rattfink on Sept 26, 2008 15:58:25 GMT -6
airman,
Have you read any of Neyland's strategies on the kicking game? I know he's from another era but I think you would appreciate his approach.
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Post by casec11 on Sept 26, 2008 16:10:46 GMT -6
Airman, So why not always defer? they will recieve in the first half and if you so choose in the second you can kick too, but if your down and want to recieve you can. I can understand wanting your D or your kicking team on the field to start the game though.
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