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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 27, 2008 18:51:32 GMT -6
msn.foxsports.com/soccer/story/8288178?MSNHPHMAYes, it is soccer, HOWEVER, i find it interesting that a national organization has this much power. Can we gain anything from considering this type of strategy in football? Would things be better if our Under 8 kids didn't keep track of wins and losses? but rather worked kids at all sorts of positions and focused on blocking/tackling rather than "get it to Johnny outside"
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Post by los on Jun 27, 2008 20:01:28 GMT -6
Ha Ha....we didn't let them play football here, till they "were already 8", coach D.....far as keeping track of wins and losses during the season, most of my players couldn't have told you our record, if money was involved, lol.....they live and play for the moment.....they "know" if they won or lost the game they just played, but 30 minutes later, while pigging out at a local fast food joint, if I'd have asked the entire team what the score was......I'll guarantee that most of them, wouldn't know or really care much by that point, but they "did remember" the good plays or big hits they made, so they could brag about it at school the next day,lol.....if you failed to get a kid in the game, for whatever reason, they also remember that.......keeping up with all the records, statistics, etc.... and making "too big" of a deal of it, falls on the adults.....coach's, parents, etc....Working kids at different positions or skill sets, when their real young, is probably something most of us try to do anyhow.....but....as they get older though, say in the 12-13 range......and especially if you play a mixed weight format......we kinda played them in positions, where they'd likely have the best chance of playing on the school jr. high team, when they left us that season........a weight class format, would be a different thing altogether, where the entire team is "nearly" the same size, weight.....speed aside, they may find it easier, to work kids at different positions, at a higher age bracket?
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 27, 2008 20:15:51 GMT -6
LOS--that is exactly what I was kind of alluding to. Score, records, stats....(AND MAKING A BIG DEAL OF IT) are all actions of the adults. However, lets say you have a really talented kid...well, if there is a scoreboard, and there are records, and there are ..uggg... parents who are worried about these things, then skills be damned, get Jimmy the ball.
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Post by los on Jun 27, 2008 21:43:31 GMT -6
LOL......wish I'd had more Jimmy's.....but, as we were usually blessed with waay more "average Joe's", it behooved us to try to spread it around......but I've had some special kids on teams before......and you're right......"your own" natural competitive instinct to win, tells you, to let this kid carry the load.....(without any help from parents, lol)......granted, you'll still need good blocking and execution from the other 10 guys, if you're playing an "equal opponent"......but if you're smart.....you'll remember you have 5 other skill positions, that need some carry's, passes, etc...to get the most out of them and the offense......just takes some of us, longer than others, to get smart, lol.......The parents were actually pretty good here, coach D......and not particularly worried about such things, as stats, records, etc.... And honestly, I wouldn't care if they did.....the worst they could do, is run me off , from a no pay, volunteer job, lol
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Post by tog on Jun 29, 2008 20:19:13 GMT -6
I dont see why it is so hard to treat it just like we do a freshman team. Everyone gets to play. We run an offense. When it comes to nut cuttin time the best kids are going to get the ball, youth, jr high, high school, college, nfl .
Dance with the one that brung ya.
And yes. Teach the concepts of winning and losing RIGHT NOW. We have a society of young people that expect everything handed to them. Nope, football teaches one great thing above all else. If you get knocked on your ass.
1. lay there and whine about it not being fair "victimization" crap that leads to no life succes
or
2. get back up and keep doing your best no matter what the odds
hmmmm
which one leads to success in life?
thats why we play games anyhow
to compete
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 29, 2008 21:06:46 GMT -6
I dont see why it is so hard to treat it just like we do a freshman team. Everyone gets to play. We run an offense. When it comes to nut cuttin time the best kids are going to get the ball, youth, jr high, high school, college, nfl . Dance with the one that brung ya. And yes. Teach the concepts of winning and losing RIGHT NOW. We have a society of young people that expect everything handed to them. Nope, football teaches one great thing above all else. If you get knocked on your {censored}. 1. lay there and whine about it not being fair "victimization" crap that leads to no life succes or 2. get back up and keep doing your best no matter what the odds hmmmm which one leads to success in life? thats why we play games anyhow to compete To answer your first question..the reason is because 6 year olds are VASTLY different than 14 year olds. That is the crux of this issue. WINNING YOUTH PLAY...can lead to substantially different methods than higher levels of play. Brophy discussed the lack of teaching the passing game, TRULY teaching the passing game (not just throwing a few play action boots or sprints) at the early youth levels several months back. The reason that such things are not done as that it is a waste of time if you want to "win". Davecisar has accurately pointed out (with some impressive stats) that on average, nationwide , passing the ball simply does NOT produce wins at the early youth levels. With the limited practice time already, and various experience levels, minimum play requirements...the formula for winning youth sports DIFFERS from the formulas for winning sports at other levels. For example: In lower level youth baseball, you take pitches, steal bases, and pitch around (intentionally walk) the heart of the other teams line up when men are on base. In lower level youth basketball...forget running any semblance of offense. You press, you trap in the corner, you put your tall player on the left block, you have your ball handler dribble down the right side, take to the goal, and have the tall player weakside rebound the misses. In lower level youth football, you cut your split to 6inches (12 max), you run misdirection series football, or toss to your fastest player running wide. Bottom line--Winning YOUTH sports is different (especially at the lower levels) than winning at older ages. It is a valid question to ask..if the emphasis is not on winning, will that allow for better skill development... This wasn't a self esteem issue, it wasn't about protecting little johnny's ego. This was about the coaches and the parents. It was about someone (national soccer organization) saying TEACH THESE SKILLS, recognizing that at 6, 7,8 years old, THOSE SKILLS...don't produce winners. Maybe, if trophies and titles and wins aren't pushed by parents and coaches..then might see a great youth coach like Davecisar use his methodology, teaching skills, organizational skills etc.. to teach a qb some true QB mechanics/fundamentals relating to the passing game. Maybe they will teach catching, very detailed route running, more advanced coverage techniques...maybe some pass pro, maybe some zone steps. All skills that do not lead to wins at 6,7,8....but definitely impact play at 15,16,17.
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Post by tog on Jun 29, 2008 21:12:03 GMT -6
then don't pass so much
just run what your high school runs if you have the best interests of the kids in mind
within that framework---get it to your best kids just like any other dang coach in the world would
just keep in your mind that you need to get all the kids in there for some meaningful playing time
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 29, 2008 21:20:41 GMT -6
then don't pass so much just run what your high school runs if you have the best interests of the kids in mind within that framework---get it to your best kids just like any other dang coach in the world would just keep in your mind that you need to get all the kids in there for some meaningful playing time Which high school. My city has 4 public and one private high school? The youth league is city wide. The next parish (county) has 2 public and 1 private with a city wide youth league. There is another smaller youth league that basis its team geographically (teams from smaller towns or locals) feeds 3 different high schools. Just trying to show that situations are not the same nationwide.
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Post by tog on Jun 29, 2008 21:31:53 GMT -6
true
have at it 058585757485
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Post by Coach Huey on Jun 29, 2008 21:33:32 GMT -6
let me see if i can sum up the reason for this:
the youth coaches were {censored}, only concerned with "run the fastest kid play", didn't do any teaching to anyone other than "get out of john's way", so, league governing body went to this ...
pretty much sum it up? so, basically, PC way of saying "you coaches suck, so we ain't gonna keep score"
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Post by los on Jun 29, 2008 21:45:59 GMT -6
I agree with the competition part Tog.....where you "may" have issue's at the youth level "at times" - (program's mission )= what are we trying to accomplish?......spend the majority of our limited practice time, teaching kids the many basic football skills and rules, that will ultimately make them better players......or hit the highlights on fundamentals, and spend the bulk of your time on a scheme, to win "NOW".......if you can accomplish both, thats awesome......I think this was the point they were making about the youth soccer teams..... "they aren't "accomplishing both.....and their fundamentals are lacking, as they enter higher levels of play? Whether you're running a mass soccer formation or letting little "Jimmy" the super kid, tote the mail, the majority of a youth football game.....the (perception) of a lot of folks, would naturally be.....you all are just trying to win some relatively meaningless kid games, and the heck with everything else? Its a fine line youth programs walk, in this respect Tog.....its pretty much understood, when kids get to high school and coach's jobs and career's are on the line......"winning" takes on a different perspective.
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Post by tog on Jun 29, 2008 21:49:38 GMT -6
lol huey
to the others
they should fire the dang coaches then
get ones in there that don't have to stroke the ego so dang much
have someone that knows what they are doing in charge of the league and see if they are teaching the game while still competing
if they aren't then shitcan them
if they are--keep them around as long as possible regardless of record
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 29, 2008 22:02:19 GMT -6
let me see if i can sum up the reason for this: the youth coaches were {censored}, only concerned with "run the fastest kid play", didn't do any teaching to anyone other than "get out of john's way", so, league governing body went to this ... pretty much sum it up? so, basically, PC way of saying "you coaches suck, so we ain't gonna keep score" No Huey.. First, the article in question wasn't american football..lol..it was that spotted ball. But the crux of this story is that WINNING YOUTH STRATEGIES do NOT necessarily equate to winning strategies at higher levels. Thus, the skills a coach should teach to WIN YOUTH GAMES are not necessarily the entire skill set a player "should" be exposed to. That is the thought process here. It is VERY similar to coaches who "run their stuff" during 7-on-7, even though that is NOT the theoretical best way to "win" 7 on 7. Also, I ask you guys..do you give out trophies after each practice? If not, How do you keep your kids "competing" I just don't see why everyone equates "keeping score" and "winning" with competing. I ALSO don't see why everyone misses the crux of the actions here. It isn't about keeping up self esteem. It is about recognizing DIFFERENCES in objectives, skill levels, and skills/strategies for youth play (6,7,8 year olds) and older kids.
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Post by tog on Jun 29, 2008 22:11:23 GMT -6
Also, I ask you guys..do you give out trophies after each practice? If not, How do you keep your kids "competing" ummmm we do at the varsity level it's called playing time this aint rocket surgery man
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 29, 2008 22:29:15 GMT -6
coach--apparently it must be...because so many of you are fixated on a trophy, scores, and leagues instead of the actual main idea..of the concept..which is that developing and using all of the skills in football are futile at the younger ages. If parents are clamoring for wins, you don't teach this kid to bear crawl, that kid to shoeshine, you cut your splits....
Bottom line, if you are about "trophies,wins, etc" at the youth level, especially the youngest ages, YOU DON'T run Tog's offense, or Huey's offense. YOu don't teach those skills at all. You run Steve Calande's offense , or Dave Cisar's offense. You teach THOSE skills.
Regardless, very few have coached Div 1 college football, High School, Jr. High, and youth ball as well as teach kids ages 6-12. So I guess I have a different perspective than most here and I guess I can see why some of these issues just don't seem to compute with others. So I apologize if it comes off as argumentative...I just want to enlighten a bit, and explore some of those "innovative" new concepts involving training, program development, player development...
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Post by los on Jun 29, 2008 22:38:01 GMT -6
LOL......well, we did give out these cheap little participation trophy's at the end of each season.....but seriously.......we didn't keep score during okie drills at practice, and it was pretty dang competitive, lol.......so yeah, coach D.....(theoretically speaking)......winning or losing a competition, doesn't necessarily have to be numbers on a scoreboard.... it could be, who's on the ground, on their backside and who's looking down at them grinning, lol......then...if more of their guys are on their butts, our guy with the football, can run all the way down the field, across the line with the "G"s on each end.....then the other team gets their turn.......instead of keeping up with "how many times" your guys run across the "G" line......they could just play like this for an hour or so....enjoying.... knocking kids down.....tackling the kid with the ball.....playing throw and catch.....trying to kick the ball between the two posts, etc....hmmmm, sounds like good ,competitive, fun, to me, lol !
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Post by tog on Jun 29, 2008 22:48:58 GMT -6
coach--apparently it must be...because so many of you are fixated on a trophy, scores, and leagues instead of the actual main idea..of the concept..which is that developing and using all of the skills in football are futile at the younger ages. If parents are clamoring for wins, you don't teach this kid to bear crawl, that kid to shoeshine, you cut your splits.... Bottom line, if you are about "trophies,wins, etc" at the youth level, especially the youngest ages, YOU DON'T run Tog's offense, or Huey's offense. YOu don't teach those skills at all. You run Steve Calande's offense , or Dave Cisar's offense. You teach THOSE skills. Regardless, very few have coached Div 1 college football, High School, Jr. High, and youth ball as well as teach kids ages 6-12. So I guess I have a different perspective than most here and I guess I can see why some of these issues just don't seem to compute with others. So I apologize if it comes off as argumentative...I just want to enlighten a bit, and explore some of those "innovative" new concepts involving training, program development, player development... read this again lol huey to the others they should fire the dang coaches then get ones in there that don't have to stroke the ego so dang much have someone that knows what they are doing in charge of the league and see if they are teaching the game while still competing if they aren't then shitcan them if they are--keep them around as long as possible regardless of record I agree with a lot of what you have to say. The "particapation" aspect of things instead of competing needs to be leveled though. Those kids still need to know what it feels like to lose. Otherwise we are just enabling them. True compassion is to teach them how to fish. In this case how to fish in the game of football and how to fish in the game of life both are important running the super duper system isn't the answer running johnny left and johnny right isn't either obviously teach em how to block and tackle and just like every other level the ones that can do that will win more than those that don't
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Post by davecisar on Jun 30, 2008 5:49:09 GMT -6
Speaking from experience of coaching in several different youth leagues at many different age levels: Some kids are naturally competitive, they are really into winning and losing even down to age 7, but many arent, it depends on the kid. Ive almost always found those ultra competitive kids almost always are real good players when they get older. Most coaches at age 6-8 are VERY low key. I started an in-house rec level type league for our age 6-8 kids with a rule that EVERYONE started and played the whole game at at least one position and we didn keep score or have league titles. Guess what? The kids knew the score, the parents kept track and one team even had a "league championship" and gave out trophies. It ended up beingn a big hassle. No matter how low key we tried to make it, some of the kids and parents wanted it to be competitive, 3 of the 4 teams coaches were great, they "got it" the kids and many parents didnt' As the kids get older they can do more and they naturally get more competitive. If our goal is to retain kids and help them develop a love for the game, it's our duty to teach great fundamentals, get everyone involved, play everyone and have competitive teams. Ive never personally coached a team where one player had over 30% of the yardage in a season. If you are a good coach with a good scheme, you dont have to rely on that one kid to carry your team. Ive coached against plenty of those teams though. For each of the last 3 seasons every one of my kids has carried the ball at least once and 36 different kids have scored TDs. Thats how you get 95% + retention rates. You can teach great fundamentals, play everyone, have fun, spread it aroung AND win. The best youth coaches do all this and have competitive teams, these arent mutually exclusive goals. Many coaches that have not had team success will argue against that point. But rarely do the well coached teams that have great fundamentals do poorly on the field. It is easy to see which teams are running great practices, not wasting time and have the correct priorities in the first 5 minutes of most games. PArt of it too is putting kids into schemes and techniques where they can have both personal and team success. If the kid isnt having at least some success and playing, they arent having fun. One team we played in 2006 threw the ball 31 times and completed 0 in a game we won 38-6. We on the other hand threw just 5 times, completing 3, Who do you think had more fun? MY team had 13 different ballcarriers that game and 5 different kids scoresd TDs, 5 different kids kicked off and 4 different kids got PAT kick tries, everyone got plenty of snaps on both sides of the ball etc. who had more fun? I promise you my kids we smiling a lot more than the kids on the other sidelines Football isnt all about how many passes you throw, it's about blocking and tackling. Those coaches that can do that and instill a love and appreciation of the game into their players are the ones retaining players and doing a great job IMHO. Its been my personal experience the guys in the leagues weve played in that whine the most about this, rarely have competitive teams and look for excuses they can tell their parents when the parents arent happy with the results on the field. These are the same teams where kids arent getting into good stances, dont accelerate through contact and the offenses and defenses look like a smorgasboard of Sunday NFL clips, yes NFL type schemes, but not the ESPN Sportscenter clips, the football follies ones.
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Post by justryn2 on Jun 30, 2008 6:21:25 GMT -6
IMO, doing away with the scoreboard is NOT about focusing on the fundamentals. Its just a smokescreen for that PC, self-esteem crap. At every level of football, from the youngest youth teams to the NFL, the team that has more players execute the fundamental skills well usually wins.
Now I do try to take the focus away from the scoreboard during the game. Every Monday, the team meets to review, among other things, how we did on our goals from the previous week and what our goals are for the coming week. Goals are things like number of "knock back" tackles, number of gang tackles, number of turnovers, number of negative yardage plays, etc. Our goals never have anything to do with the score. We teach that the score is a result of doing these other things over which the players have much more control.
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Post by coachd5085 on Jun 30, 2008 6:36:39 GMT -6
Most coaches at age 6-8 are VERY low key. I started an in-house rec level type league for our age 6-8 kids with a rule that EVERYONE started and played the whole game at at least one position and we didn keep score or have league titles. Guess what? The kids knew the score, the parents kept track and one team even had a "league championship" and gave out trophies. It ended up beingn a big hassle. No matter how low key we tried to make it, some of the kids and parents wanted it to be competitive, 3 of the 4 teams coaches were great, they "got it" the kids and many parents didnt' This is exactly my point. Obviously football doesn't have a national team, like England has in soccer, so it is an apples to oranges...or maybe even grapes...comparison. HOWEVER the thought that the National directors are telling peaople (parents) "WORRYING ABOUT SCORES/TROPHIES at 6,7,8 is HURTING us in the long run" is a very interesting concept. As far as the rest of your discussion supports what I am talking about. If you are going to "win" at the youth level...there are certain things you will teach, and certain things YOU WILL NOT teach.
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CoachJ
Junior Member
Posts: 307
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Post by CoachJ on Jun 30, 2008 8:22:12 GMT -6
To answer your first question..the reason is because 6 year olds are VASTLY different than 14 year olds. That is the crux of this issue. WINNING YOUTH PLAY...can lead to substantially different methods than higher levels of play. Brophy discussed the lack of teaching the passing game, TRULY teaching the passing game (not just throwing a few play action boots or sprints) at the early youth levels several months back. The reason that such things are not done as that it is a waste of time if you want to "win". Davecisar has accurately pointed out (with some impressive stats) that on average, nationwide , passing the ball simply does NOT produce wins at the early youth levels. With the limited practice time already, and various experience levels, minimum play requirements...the formula for winning youth sports DIFFERS from the formulas for winning sports at other levels. For example: In lower level youth baseball, you take pitches, steal bases, and pitch around (intentionally walk) the heart of the other teams line up when men are on base. In lower level youth basketball...forget running any semblance of offense. You press, you trap in the corner, you put your tall player on the left block, you have your ball handler dribble down the right side, take to the goal, and have the tall player weakside rebound the misses. In lower level youth football, you cut your split to 6inches (12 max), you run misdirection series football, or toss to your fastest player running wide. Bottom line--Winning YOUTH sports is different (especially at the lower levels) than winning at older ages. It is a valid question to ask..if the emphasis is not on winning, will that allow for better skill development... This wasn't a self esteem issue, it wasn't about protecting little johnny's ego. This was about the coaches and the parents. It was about someone (national soccer organization) saying TEACH THESE SKILLS, recognizing that at 6, 7,8 years old, THOSE SKILLS...don't produce winners. Maybe, if trophies and titles and wins aren't pushed by parents and coaches..then might see a great youth coach like Davecisar use his methodology, teaching skills, organizational skills etc.. to teach a qb some true QB mechanics/fundamentals relating to the passing game. Maybe they will teach catching, very detailed route running, more advanced coverage techniques...maybe some pass pro, maybe some zone steps. All skills that do not lead to wins at 6,7,8....but definitely impact play at 15,16,17. The mentality that only "x" thing works in youth football or that if you want to win you can't do "x" is my biggest problem with youth coaches. Essentially I run into many that are close minded by the book types. You can't argue with their success, but their kids do have to be re-taught when they get older. As an 8th grade coach we serve as a bridge from "youth" football and high school football. Many times we have to re-teach all these fundementals that are suppossedly worked on a ton at the youth level. Although to be fair we do get some kids with solid technique. A lot of times I see people argue that high schools have "4 years to teach their system". This is true, but if I send a shoulder blocking kid to a hands blocking team, he is behind the curve. It isn't an easy thing to "re-teach" and the kid suffers because unless he can break engrained habbits, he won't play early.
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Post by davecisar on Jun 30, 2008 16:46:34 GMT -6
Most coaches at age 6-8 are VERY low key. I started an in-house rec level type league for our age 6-8 kids with a rule that EVERYONE started and played the whole game at at least one position and we didn keep score or have league titles. Guess what? The kids knew the score, the parents kept track and one team even had a "league championship" and gave out trophies. It ended up beingn a big hassle. No matter how low key we tried to make it, some of the kids and parents wanted it to be competitive, 3 of the 4 teams coaches were great, they "got it" the kids and many parents didnt' This is exactly my point. Obviously football doesn't have a national team, like England has in soccer, so it is an apples to oranges...or maybe even grapes...comparison. HOWEVER the thought that the National directors are telling peaople (parents) "WORRYING ABOUT SCORES/TROPHIES at 6,7,8 is HURTING us in the long run" is a very interesting concept. As far as the rest of your discussion supports what I am talking about. If you are going to "win" at the youth level...there are certain things you will teach, and certain things YOU WILL NOT teach. Coach, The facts and research shows that if the kid isnt having some personal and team success, HE WONT EVER PLAY HS FOOTBALL so none of it would matter one bit If he never makes it to the HS field all is lost. The guys from Jenks and other top HS programs in the country couldnt care less what a kid has run as long as hes coachable and has a love and appreciation of the game AND IS STILL PLAYING.
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Post by davecisar on Jun 30, 2008 18:28:10 GMT -6
To answer your first question..the reason is because 6 year olds are VASTLY different than 14 year olds. That is the crux of this issue. WINNING YOUTH PLAY...can lead to substantially different methods than higher levels of play. Brophy discussed the lack of teaching the passing game, TRULY teaching the passing game (not just throwing a few play action boots or sprints) at the early youth levels several months back. The reason that such things are not done as that it is a waste of time if you want to "win". Davecisar has accurately pointed out (with some impressive stats) that on average, nationwide , passing the ball simply does NOT produce wins at the early youth levels. With the limited practice time already, and various experience levels, minimum play requirements...the formula for winning youth sports DIFFERS from the formulas for winning sports at other levels. For example: In lower level youth baseball, you take pitches, steal bases, and pitch around (intentionally walk) the heart of the other teams line up when men are on base. In lower level youth basketball...forget running any semblance of offense. You press, you trap in the corner, you put your tall player on the left block, you have your ball handler dribble down the right side, take to the goal, and have the tall player weakside rebound the misses. In lower level youth football, you cut your split to 6inches (12 max), you run misdirection series football, or toss to your fastest player running wide. Bottom line--Winning YOUTH sports is different (especially at the lower levels) than winning at older ages. It is a valid question to ask..if the emphasis is not on winning, will that allow for better skill development... This wasn't a self esteem issue, it wasn't about protecting little johnny's ego. This was about the coaches and the parents. It was about someone (national soccer organization) saying TEACH THESE SKILLS, recognizing that at 6, 7,8 years old, THOSE SKILLS...don't produce winners. Maybe, if trophies and titles and wins aren't pushed by parents and coaches..then might see a great youth coach like Davecisar use his methodology, teaching skills, organizational skills etc.. to teach a qb some true QB mechanics/fundamentals relating to the passing game. Maybe they will teach catching, very detailed route running, more advanced coverage techniques...maybe some pass pro, maybe some zone steps. All skills that do not lead to wins at 6,7,8....but definitely impact play at 15,16,17. The mentality that only "x" thing works in youth football or that if you want to win you can't do "x" is my biggest problem with youth coaches. Essentially I run into many that are close minded by the book types. You can't argue with their success, but their kids do have to be re-taught when they get older. As an 8th grade coach we serve as a bridge from "youth" football and high school football. Many times we have to re-teach all these fundementals that are suppossedly worked on a ton at the youth level. Although to be fair we do get some kids with solid technique. A lot of times I see people argue that high schools have "4 years to teach their system". This is true, but if I send a shoulder blocking kid to a hands blocking team, he is behind the curve. It isn't an easy thing to "re-teach" and the kid suffers because unless he can break engrained habbits, he won't play early. Intersting Point: Until recently the teams Coach Js Select team primarily fed into was a 1)fairly balanced team, 2) a power running and option team ( as many as 5 games per season with ZERO passes thrown and 3) what had been a traditional Wing T team. Now each does things a different way and most Wing T teams traditionally Shoulder block as did Omaha Burke ( same geographic area) until Jack Ohlendt left, so any way you slice it you rarely are preparing for the oh so ominous and doom filled "next level" . BTW What you can do with a "select" team that in essence chooses or gets the best of 200+ kids and what the average no cut, non select group, where everyone plays a bunch, can do are 2 different things. Most HS kids wont start VArsity for 2+ years, I guess 2-4 years of year round football for most isnt enough time to get up to speed in HIGH SCHOOL level football. How about Millard North, one of the States premier and most successful teams ( the ones that often have 5-6 games per season where they dont throw a single pass) are they doing something "immoral and wrong" by not running the same thing as most of the Colleges? This team throws as few as 25 passes some years. How about Navy or West Virginia, arent they doing their kids a disservice by not running something that that you see on Sundays? We should start preparing each and every kid for the NFL at age 8? Even though 1 kid in 10,000+ will ever be an NFL player. Lets cut the other 9,999 short so little Johnny is set to play on Sundays Lets just invite the NFL to take over all levels of football and mandate everyone run a set generic NFL offense to make sure by the time the kid makes it to the NFL he has no learning curve
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Post by los on Jun 30, 2008 21:59:47 GMT -6
Those are great points J and Dave.....#1-the kids need to keep playing = "whatever it takes" to keep them interested in football? #2- the better prepared they are(generic fundamental wise) = the better chance they'll have of playing right away, at whatever level they proceed to....whether jr. high or whatever? #3- Which particular fundamentals you stress = probably has more to do with your "program's mission" and the "type of scheme's" you run? #4 - Every youth program has a slightly different situation = some are in small community's, feeding into 1 school program, while others in high population areas, feed many school systems.....#5 - Need good communication with the program's your players will be going to = While most school coach's, probably don't care what the local youth program runs scheme wise(ours didn't)....I'd bet that most would like "certain generic fundamentals" taught and reinforced......again....might be hard to determine, in a large population area, but very easy in a small community......You're right also Dave.....we don't need our national football league, dictating our practice methods, lol......but it certainly wouldn't hurt to get the input of our local school programs.....just my opinion
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Post by davecisar on Jul 1, 2008 5:33:20 GMT -6
LOS, Missed my point. If the goal is always #1 to be able to fit 100% in day 1 to the "next level" the next level for the youth player is HS, for the HS player the next level is College Football, for the College Football player it is the NFL. So if that is the said goal, making the player 100% perfect fit day 1 into the next level, lets just have them all NFL ready day 1 from age 8, otherwise we are shortchanging them in exchange for being competitive at the level they are at now LOL. The College teams better be running the NFL guys stuff, the HS guys better be running the College guys stuff ( which is the NFL guys stuff) and the youth guys better be running the HS guys stuff which is the NFL guys stuff because we all have to make 100% sure that the 1 kid in 10,000 youth players that makes the NFL fits in day 1 to the next level with no requirement to learn anything new Funny thing now is a number of the kids I coached when I started my program are now DI recruits. The top 3 in the state this season all played for me and 2 are in different High Schools playing in different systems and some are even playing different positions ( bodies change). It didnt seem to bother them one iota. All 3 love playing the game, are very coachable, have great grades and 2 of the 3 never missed a weight session we had ( 7th & 8th graders). The other boy is wrestler so he couldnt attend.
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Post by davecisar on Jul 1, 2008 6:14:31 GMT -6
LOS,
Very good post anyway
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Post by coachtabales on Jul 1, 2008 6:50:29 GMT -6
Coach, The facts and research shows that if the kid isnt having some personal and team success, HE WONT EVER PLAY HS FOOTBALL so none of it would matter one bit We should all be very careful about making blanket statements like this. That may be your research in your state, but I know for a fact that there is a team with at least half of the unrestricted weight class (Pop Warner) here in Kansas City from a couple of years back that are playing HS ball now. These boys played on the same teams together from Pee Wee, and won a total of maybe 5 games over the last 3 seasons before going to HS. There was no team success and any personal success would have been overshadowed by the massive failures on their teams. And I mean massive failures losing games at an average of 21 points all season long. Some games not making it past halftime due to the mercy rule. Those coaches are long gone now, but the point is that these kids played because they simply loved to play the game, period. Now they are starters at the local HS. IMHO, aside from the fundamentals, maybe a trick or two, and a good time, there is little more that can be taught to a team as a whole. Some individuals will get more out of it than others, but there are existing limitations that we won't ever be able to overcome, regardless of system or experience. Then again, I could be completely wrong.
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Post by bigshel on Jul 2, 2008 1:23:38 GMT -6
In addition Coach Cisar, sometimes bodies don't change enough. I've had players at the youth level that were predominantly OL/DL because of weight limitations (160 lbs. at the midget level), go to high school and find they're RB/SS in size. This is especially prevalent because most high schools where I live don't have frosh teams, just JV and varsity. As a result, a 165 lb. kid who has never had to play in space has to learn very quickly, or the coaches start to label him as "fundamentally unsound"; never mind the fact that he blocks and tackles like a beast, he got burned on the post-corner...
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Post by davecisar on Jul 2, 2008 2:02:23 GMT -6
Amen, seen it happen many times. Some kids just top out in 7th-8th grade. YOu just never know. So even if you are running the HS offense, because of what puberty may or may not bring you may be playing a totally different position.
I will never forget a kid I coached in a Suburban league that had a weight limit. This pudgy kid was always at the top of the weight range, and farily slow, definitely played line for us, our biggest kid.
I saw him 2 years ago as a 20 year old at an NU baseball game, he said hello, I didnt recognize him at all. He had only grown a few inches but he had lost all his Baby Fat, turned out he played FB in HS and an undersized one at that LOL. You just never know.
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Post by los on Jul 2, 2008 6:25:53 GMT -6
Yes sir.....good point bigshel......seen the same here.....and then the reverse, like Dave said earlier, where kids that were little skinny guys, grew up, to get huge.....this was kinda my point, in past posts on the subject of training or practice routines, (while I'll admit, it does take valuable practice time).....not only to teach, but also to reinforce during each season.... I kinda felt it was my "duty".....to make sure "every kid on every team"....at least......knew how to back pedal, make a zone turn, break on the football, shuffle, carioca, slide, give and take a handoff, run the basic pass routes, hold the ball properly, execute a good 1on1 base drive block, take on or shed a block, tackle safely,etc..etc...etc...you get the idea.....the list is endless.....just any of the basic/generic stuff, that "all" positions, might use on the football field. Yeah....it takes a crap load of time, and might require you to run very simple schemes(for lack of time)....but I always thought this was my job, as a youth coach? los
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