mkool65
Probationary Member
Posts: 8
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Post by mkool65 on Nov 16, 2007 10:18:11 GMT -6
This year we had one athlete on our team who was by far the best athlete in the league. We played him at running back the first half of the season and than switched him to QB so he didn't get bored with it. Anyway we were up on a team 32-0 at half (he scored 26 of those points single handedly) and easily out-classed the other team. The question is do we keep him and our other starters in to get more experience with the offense and defense or do we go way out of our way to put in second and third string players? Do we take out the kid who gives the others so much more confidence or do we let the other kids get beat up a little? Where do we draw the line.
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Post by wildcat on Nov 17, 2007 11:05:43 GMT -6
It depends what your motivation is.
Are you coaching youth ball because you want to develop young players and help them foster a genuine love, appreciation, and respect for the life lessons the game offers or are you coaching youth ball because it strokes your ego?
My opinion is that if you leave a kid like that in a game that has been clearly decided, you are the kind of guy who is in it for himself, not for the kids.
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Post by davecisar on Nov 18, 2007 13:30:56 GMT -6
Take him out early.
If he needs snaps put him at another position. thats what I do.
Everyone who shows at practice plays, and if it is a blowout the backups play as much and sometimes more than the starters. Getting good game experience for your non starters is the right thing to do and makes you a better team in the long run.
It all evens out in the end.
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Post by wildcat on Nov 18, 2007 13:57:02 GMT -6
Good post, Dave.
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Post by lochness on Nov 19, 2007 13:10:09 GMT -6
Definitely take him out early. What a great opportunity to get some of the less talented kids some time and experience. You have no idea how much that means to some of those kids!! And, it's not the NFL...in youth, it's not the "defense's responsibility to stop you," and you never want to humiliate or embarrass your opponents.
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Post by davecisar on Nov 20, 2007 7:06:07 GMT -6
Definitely take him out early. What a great opportunity to get some of the less talented kids some time and experience. You have no idea how much that means to some of those kids!! And, it's not the NFL...in youth, it's not the "defense's responsibility to stop you," and you never want to humiliate or embarrass your opponents. I agree, there are many youth coaches that buy into the idea that it is the other teams job to stop the offense. Golly it isnt College Football or the NFL> You would be surprised how many guys feel that way and borrow, the "Its your job to stop me" line from upper level coaches. My opinion is Im there for my kids first, but Im there for the other boys too. Say that on a few youth football forums and you will be lambasted for it, believe it or not. When we are up and the game is well in hand, I dont tell my kids not to play hard. I just put kids into situations where I know we wont score via calling the same exact play over and over again with a different non ballcarrier carrying the ball. By getting my better players off the field. By telling the ref that any contested ball shoud be awarded to the opposition and lastly putting kids at unfamilair defensive positions. Our kids enjoy doing stuff like that, they learn a little bit about compassion, they get to play a different position and we dont overly embarrass the other team at the end of the day. Ive even told the ref not to let us go over 50, flag us etc on something like an Int return, we dont ever want to go over 50 and our kids and parents know what the deal is. |
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Post by Coach Bruce on Nov 20, 2007 7:10:39 GMT -6
Exactly..that is what I do..if we score, flag us, turnover, flag us...play the backups. Switch positions. In our leaugue coaches are voted on each year..run up the score ya just won't get another opprotunity to do it in our town.
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Post by coach79 on Nov 20, 2007 14:03:26 GMT -6
When we were blowing teams out we had our "Mercy Offense". Basically it was 22 different kids, and we just asked them what position they wanted to play. for the most part we had our "Skills" on the line and the lineMEN at the "skills" positions.
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Post by wildcat on Nov 20, 2007 23:11:37 GMT -6
Here's another side of it...you really aren't impressing anyone when you are leaving in a kid who is just physically dominant over the competition. It is OBVIOUS when that happens. I coach 7th grade basketball during the winter. We had a game tonight against a school that showed up with 10 slow, short, skinny white kids who couldn't jump over a piece of paper. Well, our 6' post player who can jump through the gym and probably had a basketball in his hands before he could walk had 20 points in the 1st period! (Keep in mind that we only play 6 minute periods!  ) Anyway, all we had to do to score was was dribble the ball down the court and then lob pass it to Shaq and he would simply turn around, swat these little ankle-biters out of the way, and make an easy lay-up. It was so easy, it wasn't even fun...wasn't a challenge. The kids knew it. The other coaches knew it. We knew it. The fans in the bleachers knew it. So, after the first period, we sat him and the other starters for the rest of the game and got our 2s and 3s a ton of time. It was good for EVERYONE...good for our kids because the backups got a lot of work. Good for the other team because they could actually compete on a level playing field. Good for the coaches because we actually had to coach. We couldn't simply "give the ball to the fast kid" and sit back and drink a Fresca. We won the game, but everyone left feeling like they had accomplished something and had getten better. If we would have left our starters in, we would have won that game about 70-10 and it wouldn't have accomplished ANYTHING of significance. |
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Post by canesfan on Jan 28, 2008 14:24:00 GMT -6
Coaches reading this.....do not run up the score...please. In youth football, you are facing children. I had a team simply try to get 100 on our team in the first game (5th and 6th grade) we played this last season, they were running a no huddle deep bomb attack with under 1 minute to go in the 4th quarter. This team could pass, i think every touchdown they scored was on a pass, we were totally overmatched at that point and time. They had a reciever that was a stud, he was easily 6 or 7 inches taller than any other player on the field, and he hurt his knee pretty badly on one of those last second throws, he was done for the year. I felt sorry for the kid, they were ahead by 30 and the "coach" if you want to call him that had him in when he didn't need to be in, and got him hurt very badly. He really hurt his team, a coach has a great impact on his players at that level as we all know, so they will unfortunately probably think it is ok to win as bad as possible. On a side note, it motivated our players, and we improved so much in this season that we beat them in our next to last game. We used their disrespect for us as motivation, ala Bill Belicheck. Thank god we didn't blow them out(honestly they were much better, stronger, faster, dont really know how we beat them), because part of me would have wanted to return the favor.
Back to the point though, running the score up has more to do with the coaches ego than the teams talent. If you are beating teams badly, it is because your studs are faster than their studs at this level.
Coach, let your younger or more inexperienced players get in. If that player is a Runningback, put him in a position to work on his lead blocking, a skill he will need as he gets into higher levels of play. I agree with letting your non-ballcarriers tote the rock and have your backs on the line blocking if you dont have the numbers to fully subsitutes. This is what I had to do, i only had 20 players or so, and my kids loved it. Mix it up, let all the linemen get a touch if your league will allow it, they've worked hard, but huddle up run some clock, and go home. Or to dairy queen like my team tends to do. Hope this helps.
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Post by bluecrazy on Jan 29, 2008 14:35:16 GMT -6
"Everyone who shows at practice plays" Great quote Dave! My new philosophy!
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Post by bluecrazy on Jan 29, 2008 14:37:07 GMT -6
Take him out early. If he needs snaps put him at another position. thats what I do. Everyone who shows at practice plays, Great qoute Dave |
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Post by bluecrazy on Jan 29, 2008 14:40:11 GMT -6
Sorry about double quote. Got fast fingers
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Post by davecisar on Jan 29, 2008 16:18:21 GMT -6
"Everyone who shows at practice plays" Great quote Dave! My new philosophy! Well I had a better one: for the real young kids when I coached baseball. They of course had to come to practice BUT I determined the batting order by the order they showed up for the games. You guessed it, had some horrificly non strategic batting orders but I always got a ton of indys done in pre game, hitting off tees, soft toss, cage, etc etc. Had kids (twins) jumping out of moms car while still moving in the parking lot to race to me so one could bat before the other ;D. Three years, zero losses  and lots of fun and pregame practice. |
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Post by coachbork on Feb 7, 2008 9:04:03 GMT -6
Coach,
In this type of game, and you should know this in advance; do not to ride your stud while the game is in question and play your 2's far more frequently while the game is in question.
I always do what is right for my team first and foremost. In this type of game you could have them creamed by halftime and be playing everyone out of position in the 3rd and 4th quarter. That doesn't do your team a lick of good in the long run.
By playing your 2's in position while the game is in question you are giving them confidence that when called upon in a big game they will be ready. By diversifying your offense you will let others know that you don't ride your stud and they can't key on him exclusively. And if you talk to your stud about the reality of the game and how scoring on XXXX isn't a test of his talent and you want him to help pump up the other players you will be creating a better teammate and keeping an ego in check.
All that being said if the team can't stop anything we do we go out of position usually on the first blowout of the year because I don't see it coming.
Coach Bork
PS. Most stud backs parents will tell you they have one problem with the OC/HC, "they are running my boy into the ground." And that's why the best back in our league switched teams at JM last year and will at JrPW this year.
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Post by justryn2 on Feb 12, 2008 10:51:50 GMT -6
In the league that I coach in, there is an "excessive score rule." The head coaches exchange rosters before the game with the four players in the starting backfield noted. When the scoring margin exceeds 24 points, the team that is ahead is required to remove their four starting backfield players. These players are allowed to play defense or on the line but cannot be in the backfield. Additionally, the team in front is not allowed to blitz or defense or to pass on offense.
I cannot say I completely agree with everything in this rule but, it became necessary because some coaches were just abusing opposing teams. All in all, a league rule regarding excessive score is a really good idea. It lets everyone know what is expected and does not rely on any having to use "common sense" in these situations. If your league does not have an excessive score rule, talk to your league representative or attend a league meeting and suggest it.
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Post by coachdoug on Feb 12, 2008 12:14:57 GMT -6
Most youth leagues have some sort of excessive score rule (some call it a Mercy Rule or a Slaughter Rule). About 10 years ago, our Mercy Rules were getting out of hand - we had rules for 24 pt margins, 36 pt margins, during the last 4 minutes of the game, during the second half, etc.
In 2000, we greatly simplified the Mercy Rule, and it has worked pretty well ever since. The rule now is:
- The rule kicks in once there is a 30 point differential.
- Any players on the leading team that have not completed their MPR requirements must enter the game and remain in the game either until it is over or until there is no longer a 30-pt differential.
- No more scoring, PATs or Kickoffs by the leading team. Even if they do score, no points go on the board. No PAT is attempted and the trailing team gets the ball 1st and 10 on the opponent's 40 yard line without a kickoff.
- The only restriction on play calling is that the leading team cannot run any "trick" or "gadget" plays. It is up to the offiicals' judgement what constitutes a trick play. In practice the officials reserve the right to throw an unsportsmanlike flag if they don't like what the leading team is doing (such as throwing too much). The benefit to this is, if you go up by 30 points early in the second quarter, you can substitute your second and third teams and let them run your complete offense.
- No running clock. The clock rules remain the same, although in practice the refs tend to run the clock a lot faster. If the losing coach requests a running clock, it is granted.
This does allow for some abuse of the rules, but our refs are pretty good about straightening out any coaches that don't get it. Most of the coaches are pretty good about abiding by the spirit of the rule, because no one wants to go back to the way it used to be.
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Post by morris on Feb 14, 2008 9:34:00 GMT -6
I wonder at what point do you guys call of the dogs on defense? I watched some youth season videos which the defense was still blitzing up by 30. Now we play an extremely pressure package defense so we have to get creative when calling off the dogs.
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Post by davecisar on Feb 14, 2008 10:59:55 GMT -6
I wonder at what point do you guys call of the dogs on defense? I watched some youth season videos which the defense was still blitzing up by 30. Now we play an extremely pressure package defense so we have to get creative when calling off the dogs. In most games we start applying less pressure when up by 2 scores. We sub from the opening gun but we wholesale sub when up by 3 scores. You wont see us pressure at all when up by 4 scores. HOWEVER in our league last year the league didnt schedule the two top teams in the division ( us and another team) . The tie breaker was record AND since we were both going to be undefeated, who gave up the fewest points. We played 4 teams that ended up with 2 losses or less, they only played 1. By week 5 they had only given up 6 points, we gave up 8 week 1, not thinking much of the rule etc until we looked closer at the schedule. Unfortunately as distasteful as it may seem we had to play for shutouts until late in the season when this played itself out. Only the top team in each dvision made the playoffs. SO we were forced to apply pressure even when up 35-0 when the other team threatened. One of the most ridiculous youth football rules I have ever seen, it was bad. In 15 years of football, Im not one to shut out teams when up big, but we had to. We played our backups, but even a lucky score could have cost us a chance to go to the title game etc. It was like coaching a game within a game, very distasteful. We ended up playing the other team in a league scheduled extra game after the regular season which we won 41-8, ( scored on fumble return for last TD) Mind you this team had ducked out of our invitation to play an extra non league game at beginning and the end of season even though they were our closest geographical opponnent. While there are some atrocious scores in youth football that easily can be avoided and should be, sometimes there are other factors at work. BTW when we call off the dogs we are very deliberate about it, so everyone knows. We call timeout and sub everyone in, move everyone around etc, everyone knows the jig is up then. |
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Post by rjcousin on Feb 14, 2008 16:00:27 GMT -6
Let's look at this from a slightly different angle... if a kid is a good kid, pays attention, shows up to every practice - he should be playing as much as anyone else. That being said... keeping him in at a ball carrying position is an ADULT ISSUE... and the coach should face a consequence.
With my way of rotating kids in I don't have 2nd stringers... I rotate offenses and defenses by series. I have a red and green offense made up so that those teams are as equal talentwise as possible and a black and blue defense. the Teams earn offensive playing time by getting first downs... I put either team out there regardless of the situation.... that way all of the kids regardless of skill get equal opportunities to play. Has worked out great. All kids are on an offense and defensive team - some might be on two but all kids get opportunities.
Couple of years ago I had a team that was pretty well rounded. One kid was a men among boys. One game we went ahead by 4 scores in the 1st qtr... that one kid had 3 touches and 3 td's. 3 touches.... the other coach was screaming at me by halftime... firing back... I said what do you want us to do... PASS? I showed one of his assistants (since he would not talk) our rotation and how we had even taken our slated RB's and put them on the line... he had no problem but I did tell him that I will NOT cheat a kid out of playing time just because he is dominant - he'll play other positions but he's here to have fun just like all of the others...
BTW - 10 different kids scored that night - either a TD or an xtra point! and ALL 20 kids got a couple of touches... after a while it was embarassing when even our weakest kid scores... what do you do?
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Post by morris on Feb 14, 2008 16:57:20 GMT -6
We had a RB this past year that scored 4 times on his first 5 carries. He also scored on the first carry of the game something like 3 games in a row. He was also a 7th grader playing on an 8th grade team. Now our HC is the DC so he does not like giving up points. He subs people in to call off the dogs. The problem is our scheme. We have to get way out of our scheme to keep it from being very ugly sometimes.
I try to let my starters play a half. 3rd quater is whole sale subs and 4th is 7th graders playing against the other team's 8th. We had a number of times our 7th graders played more time then the 8th. I was just wondering what people thought about calling the dogs off on D since you can cause just as much problems if nto more than keeping the stud RB in.
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Post by justryn2 on Feb 17, 2008 11:51:55 GMT -6
I really have not experienced anything quite as lopsided as the games morris and rjcousin are describing. Our slaughter rule kicks in at 24 points. In the second half, if one team is up by 24 or more, the rule requires a running clock; no time outs for either team and the only time the clock stops is for injury, score or at the end of the third quarter. Even if the team behind scores to bring the margin within 24 points, the running clock does not change.
So, between the running clock and the requirement to move the four starting offensive backfield players to a position other than the offensive backfield, the games do not get that much out of control. In addition to the prescribed rules, when my team is up by 24 or more, I run the ball between the tackles; no sweeps, no passes, just running between the tackles.
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Post by morris on Feb 18, 2008 18:50:40 GMT -6
Keep in mind my team is MS and we play by HS Fed rules with no changes.
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Post by coachrdg on Jun 18, 2008 22:50:13 GMT -6
Youth football is all about teaching and developing young men into sound football players as well as teaching them life lessons along the way. I am fortunate enough to be part of an organization that places extreme importance to this method and we not only want our kids to have a great football experience but also want the kids of the other team to be able to take positives away from the game as well.
All of our boys play every game and when we get up by 2/3 scores you will see mass substitutions in every game which allows us to develop those backups who in more games than not get more reps than our starters. The most touching moment I've had in youth football happened after we had beat an opponent very soundly playing our 2nd and 3rd string guys by the end of the first quarter. After the game our kids hand out cold pop to the other teams players during handshakes no matter if we win or lose and in this particular game even though the other kids had endured a pretty deflating loss (their first of the year) you should have seen how excited they were to get cold pop from our players (many of them giving high fives because they got a grape or root beer). Even though our kids are pretty classy I had our guys turn and look at those boys jumping up and down like they had won the Super Bowl and I asked them how that made them feel and my players just got a big smile on their face and said "thats pretty cool coach".
Many of our players are from extremely bad situations and to see them feel good about doing something nice for boys who are going home to much better situations than them literally brought a tear to my eye. Thats development and that moment for me eliminates all the other frustrations that can occur in youth football.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2008 9:11:38 GMT -6
Coach, in my experience, there is 3 times when you will start to see dirty play
1) When the head coach is a scumbag who advocates dangerous, and injurious practices.....(they do exist)
2) When the score is close
3) When they are getting murdered.
I'd say take him out, get him rested for the next game, makes you look like a better coach, to your people and theirs as well. We always want to keep the opposing teams best athletes off the field, sometimes it's best if we do that as well.
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Post by los on Jun 23, 2008 16:04:48 GMT -6
I gotta say.... I'm pretty impressed with the offensive production on this thread.....we just didn't have that many lopsided games here, where "running up the score", was even an issue? We had a few where, "both teams scored quite a bit", but the vast majority were relatively low scoring, defensive dominated games......Wonder if the type of league you play in makes a difference?.....Do these weight limit/weight class leagues promote more prolific scoring maybe? Just wondering? I know some guys on here are 7th/8th grade school team coach's...so I'm assuming this question about weight classes wouldn't apply?
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Post by davecisar on Jun 23, 2008 18:04:49 GMT -6
Unlimted weight class league. Many of the teams playing in outside the state tourneys etc. is where you see the high scoring teams.
IMHO the more competitive the league, the less "Rec YMCA Level", the more you have better executing and higher scoring games- bigger margins. Teams that play 11-15 games and have between 25-40 kids per team ( I only recommend 23-24) and arent playing the same teqam 2-3 times per year.
Teams that have 15-16 kids, play 6-8 games and play the same team 2-3 times just rarely are leagues where very consistent execution takes place.
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Post by los on Jun 23, 2008 19:32:00 GMT -6
I guess that kinda makes sense Dave.....but wouldn't the defensive talent/execution also get better and counteract the scoring that way?...... In our particular case, we played teams from the surrounding counties.........actually, many of the same counties, that our local HS played.....the league had 4-6 teams in each of the 2 age groups.....any kid the right age could play(and we were inexpensive also = 25 bucks per kid, plus if they couldn't pay, we let them play anyhow).....no cuts...no weight restrictions.....just had that ball carrier weight limit......I'd say most of the teams averaged 18-25 kids over the years.....what made it tough "running up the score" wise.....was everyone was pretty much "equal", lol......coaching experience.....athletic talent.....facility's.....practice time...etc....Over the years, I think every team in the league, won about the same number of league titles......just one of those ideal situations, where noone really had an edge for long, lol!
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Post by davecisar on Jun 23, 2008 20:20:19 GMT -6
Coach,
Only 4-6 teama means you play the same teams 2-3 times a year. The smaller leagues with fewer players most often play very low caliber/quality football/ Just not a big emphasis for the kids/coaches etc.
The leagues many of us play in have 30-50 teams in each age/weight class, the more games, more time. more emphasis, more travel, the greater the executuin of the better teams will be.
Most youth teams couldnt run up the score if they wanted to, their offenses arent designed well enough/age appropriate/taught well enough, executed well enough to score many points. Some leagues are "daisy picker" leagues and many arent, depends on where you coach.
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Post by los on Jun 23, 2008 21:06:47 GMT -6
Yep Dave, you're right.....we always played each team twice....once at their place, once at ours.....oh yeah, we did our share of travelling as well, lol......closest away game was 27 miles...longest trip was about 45 miles, then a couple in between.....naturally, we had no control over who played on the other counties teams.....other than checking ages and ball carrier weights....but......year in and year out.....we were all fairly balanced.....believe me, it was "very competetive", and some of these guys coaching, would have loved to "run up the score" on each other, if they got the chance, lol....problem for them was = "the equality of talent , wouldn't allow it"
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) Anyway, all we had to do to score was was dribble the ball down the court and then lob pass it to Shaq and he would simply turn around, swat these little ankle-biters out of the way, and make an easy lay-up. It was so easy, it wasn't even fun...wasn't a challenge. The kids knew it. The other coaches knew it. We knew it. The fans in the bleachers knew it. So, after the first period, we sat him and the other starters for the rest of the game and got our 2s and 3s a ton of time.
and lots of fun and pregame practice.